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Thursday, March 26, 2026

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08:35:41SquareIf you have a DB test using H2 (I assume?), is there some easy trick to connect to the in memory h2?
08:40:03NeXeNyeah it's like the connection string lemme look it up
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08:40:53NeXeNjdbc:h2:mem:whateverdb;
08:41:22NeXeNDB_CLOSE_DELAY=-1 is advised unless you want the result to be wiped when the connection is closed
08:41:40NeXeNoh DB_CLOSE_ON_EXIT=false too of course
08:42:18NeXeNhttps://www.h2database.com/html/features.html#in_memory_databases
08:42:19nevetFeatures
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09:02:38SquareNeXeN, sure that is available just like that? I thought you had to throw in some spring properties to make h2 accessible?
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09:03:54NeXeNthere is a cool web based console too
09:04:11NeXeNgotta enable it in the app props
09:04:54NeXeNonly thing i've ever had issue with is spring security might add a security filter chain
09:06:02NeXeNhttps://docs.spring.io/spring-boot/how-to/data-access.html
09:06:15NeXeNadd your url, username, pool size, etc
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10:43:02dreamrealSquare: ...
10:43:45Squaredreamreal, wdym? Have I just revealed I am dumb?
10:44:43dreamrealWhy would you say that? I don't think yo're dumb, but... I mean... wanting access to an H2 in-memory database isn't the worst idea ever, you're trying to examine running state, but suggests there's a lot of cleaner ways to work out whatever you're trying to do
10:45:05SquareI found a way from a SO post. You start a server in @BeforeAll and then you can connect to that given you set *thread* breakpoint.
10:45:32dreamrealso you're trying to examine *test* state?
10:46:30Squareyes. Atm I'm debugging a Criteria api query and sorta need the db to test stuff. Together with "hibernate.show-sql=true"
10:48:13dreamrealRight. You should do whatever you need to do to do your own thing, but *my* 100% unasked-for advice would have been, had you asked: 1) don't use in-memory for H2, 2) use testcontainers and not H2 in the first place, 3) don't use criteria
10:48:32dreamrealjava development is not hard, when it *is* hard you're doing it wrong
10:49:27dreamrealagain, this is unasked-for advice and I expect it to be treated as such
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10:50:35kcomhnallso, jetbrains is introducing "Database access for AI agents" in IntelliJ 2026.1 and I'm wondering if this feature is turned on by default if I have a jetbrains account or do I need to do something to enable it?
10:51:03kcomhnallI don't want it so... I'm kind of hesitant about the upgrade.
10:57:34jreicherdreamreal: what makes you say java development is not hard? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious about your certainty.
10:58:01dreamrealjreicher: java is *simple*. understanding is hard. You can make things hard by not understanding them, but that's because your *expression* is wrong.
10:58:54dreamrealJava does some things really poorly: unsigned types being missing is a *drag*. But those things typically have relatively limited scope - they're important, but most of us don't care until we actually hit something where we're going "hey wait this IS a limit, how what aaaaaagh"
10:59:12dreamrealI run into limits like that ALL THE TIME... but I work with images that are 4G+ in size
10:59:43dreamreal(I'm spending a pretty decent amount of time going "how what aaaaaaagh")
10:59:44jreicherI'm not sure anyone who has had to content with compiler errors related to wildcards would accept that Java is simple...
10:59:50jreicher^content^contend
11:00:11dreamrealeven so, that's understanding the type system
11:00:37jreicherYes, but I'm not sure it's simple. As I said I'm just curious about your certainty.
11:00:52dreamrealkcomhnall: you could always just turn off AI
11:01:13dreamrealI don't see anything especially related to IDEA and databases and AI
11:03:03kcomhnalldreamreal: right, and not seeing anything where? It's in the what's new section. Link also : https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/whatsnew/?utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=IU&utm_source=product&utm_content=2025.3
11:03:04javabotkcomhnall's title: "What's New in IntelliJ IDEA"
11:03:04nevetWhat's New in IntelliJ IDEA
11:03:17dreamrealjreicher: well, it's not an absolute, of course, but honestly, I've worked in systems that require a lot more understanding than java does, to get stuff done
11:03:36dreamrealit's a relatively constrained language, that's getting slightly fewer constraints as time goes on
11:04:47jreicherMaybe constrained for an OO language. But I've always believed that OO is inherently difficult.
11:05:12jreicherFor example I don't think OO should be anyone's first language.
11:05:38dreamrealjreicher: well, yeah, but that's because OO is more how we think than machines
11:06:15dreamrealkcomhnall: It looks like it's just an ability to access the database via the properties, nothing much different than working with your code
11:06:16Squaredreamreal, I agree Criteria API might get create complex queries that are hard to debug. But it's a good idea.
11:06:24Square...on paper
11:06:35dreamrealSquare: criteria are a great idea done really poorly with a very heavy implementation
11:06:50Squareoh ok?
11:07:14dreamrealI mean, you contort your *compilation* to make them work thanks to metadata
11:07:17kcomhnalldreamreal: ugggh... I don't have AI help with my code... just some autocomplete features I assume are built-in to my code editor. But okay.
11:07:27dreamrealkcomhnall: then it wouldn't affect you
11:07:32kcomhnalldreamreal: cool
11:07:35dreamrealalthough autocomplete is AI too :D
11:07:44dreamrealI wish people would stop conflating AI with LLMs
11:07:44kcomhnalleh...
11:07:51dreamrealkcomhnall: eh what
11:07:54jreicherdreamreal: actually I think OO is a "god's eye view". Humans think either pure imperative or pure functional, IMO
11:08:07dreamrealjreicher: really? What can you do with a doorknob?
11:08:40jreicherI turn it. But I do NOT then visualise what happens with the other objects in the door.
11:08:42dreamrealI mean, humans DO think differently, I have a fundamentally different perceptive model than most humans do
11:08:56dreamrealwhy do you turn it? Is it a turning doorknob?
11:09:12SquareDo you guys use some requirement tool where you're at? I'm not sure I'd count JIRA as a requirement tool. =D
11:09:15dreamrealDon't you push it first? I mean, doorknob. Or pull it?
11:09:30dreamrealSquare: I mostly annoy my co-workers.
11:09:47jreicherMaybe, but that's neither here not there. Whatever I do to the doorknob will be related to simple outcomes. That's imperative thinking. There's no object collaboration there.
11:09:54dreamreal(I really do: I use humor a lot in working with people, to help offset how annoying I am.)
11:10:05Squaredreamreal, I'm honestly curious. I feel wee lacking one.
11:10:16dreamrealjreicher: you don't think about the doorknob structure, sure. Why would you? It is what it does.
11:10:39jreicherWhich is why OO is difficult. For the system builder, the structure is exposed.
11:10:45dreamrealSquare: I don't have a good answer for you, I don't think jira would be one either. It'd track requirements humans enter, not enforce them or "be a tool for it"
11:10:58dreamrealjreicher: but a programmer DOES need to understand the context of the doorknob
11:11:11jreicherImperative is sequenced. Functional is composed. OO is collaboration, which IMO is the most difficult by far.
11:11:20dreamrealokay
11:11:29dreamrealI mean, that's fine, what can I say?
11:12:19jreicherWell, either you think I'm wrong characterising OO as collaboration, or you think collaboration is simple. I'm curious which it is?
11:12:38dreamrealFor me? Probably the latter
11:12:58dreamrealI think everything works in context and systems, so OO feels like just an expression
11:12:58jreicherInteresting. Do you also feel concurrency is simple?
11:13:15dreamrealsure! The coordination isn't, but concurrency itself is
11:13:25SquareTo me OO mostly feels like a way to organize code. Wo having SOLID principles in my head.
11:13:40dreamrealprogramming as a career for me is very much a continuous revelation of "ahhhhh, of course"
11:14:09jreicherSquare: I agree with that, but I feel it's another way of saying it's not simple. It's a bit like editing writing.
11:14:25dreamrealeditig writing is simple, too :D
11:14:30kcomhnallI've associated OO as just thinking of everything as an object having state and behavior. simple
11:14:38jreicherdreamreal: well at least you're consistent. :p
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11:15:02jreicherkcomhnall: that is simple when considering an object in isolation. How it responds to a population of objects, less so (MO)
11:15:09SquareLike Haskell has "structs/records". Association between these structs and functions that operate on them becomes a discipline thing.
11:15:10jreicher^MO^IMO
11:15:48jreicherSquare: it makes a big difference that the objects in Haskell are immutable. The interaction between them cannot lead to state change.
11:16:05kcomhnalljreicher: sounds like you're referring to interfaces.
11:16:19* kcomhnall getting distracted and should probably get back on task
11:16:25Squarejreicher, Amen to that
11:16:40jreicherIf you'll excuse the stretch, it's a bit like the "simple" rules of game of life leading to surprising outcomes. The lifcycle of a single cell is simple. The lifecycle of a population... nope
11:17:33dreamrealjreicher: I do a lot with conway too :D
11:17:55dreamrealI thought about putting conway into nevet but the usage would be none and it would add no functionality whatsoever
11:18:09dreamrealthat's a good point, though: who here uses wolfram alpha?
11:18:10kcomhnallConway's game of life was a fun project. did that using Javascript though...
11:18:23dreamrealkcomhnall: I've done it with a lot of languages in different variants
11:18:33jreicherdreamreal: whenever my local software can't do what i need. But only then.
11:18:55dreamrealjreicher: you use alpha?
11:19:41SquareI feel OO sort of disregard functional dependencies. It's more important to talk about functions than properties.
11:19:43kcomhnallmy group mates were impressed I added testing to the project. they were like "did we have to do that" heh...no but I'm not gonna not do it because it wasn't a requirement.
11:19:51jreicherBefore I discover Emacs calc I probably used it more. But even before that my main go-to was gnuplot, even when I wasn't plotting anything.
11:20:13dreamrealkcomhnall: I drive my team crazy with tests :D
11:20:29jreicherDrop the last two words and it's still true? :p
11:20:33dreamrealjreicher: you use it only for the maths?
11:20:39dreamrealwell, yeah
11:20:42jreicherIs there anything else?
11:20:43dreamrealI'm fundamentally annoying
11:20:49dreamrealjreicher: in ALPHA? Gosh, yes
11:20:58dreamrealit's *really* good at that
11:21:00jreicherLet me see.
11:21:17dreamrealunless they've removed features!
11:22:07jreicherI asked it "what is the ideal temperature for serving chaource" and it gave me some kind of weather report.
11:22:29dreamrealthat's because weather's probably relevant for ...
11:26:28dreamrealalpha's fundamentally interesting because it relies on some really complex applications of conway
11:26:39dreamrealI can't even begin to describe it the way they do
11:28:27dreamreal"basically we seed it with like a number, yeah, dude, and then it tells us the question that leads to the answer to life, the universe, and everything, and then one thing leads to another and..."
11:28:35jreicherYou mean he put "a new kind of science" into practice?!
11:28:40dreamrealyeah
11:28:46dreamrealso they say, at least
11:28:53dreamrealI loved that book, it's on my shelf right now
11:29:06jreicherI had no idea. Props for putting his mouth where his money is.
11:29:14dreamrealthat and godel, escher, bach are right by each other
11:29:56jreicherI would suggest you leaf through Heijenoort. It might change your perspective on the other books. And for the better.
11:30:31dreamrealWhich other books?
11:30:48dreamreal(Not familiar with heijenoort - url?)
11:31:39jreicherFrom Frege to Godel
11:31:57jreicherOne of the most extraordinary books I have encountered in my life. Peerless.
11:32:56dreamrealooh. That looks interesting and mindbending. Now I gotta consider.
11:33:20dreamrealReading books on maths is something I enjoyed more when I was younger, though
11:33:38jreicher"The Undecidable" by Martin Davis, is almost in the same league, but not quite. Still excellent for CS people.
11:35:37jreicherYou won't regret having a copy of Heijenoort. Even if you refer to it a few times a year for the rest of your life, you will get something from it.
11:39:02jreicherReading Godel's paper on undecidability was an interesting experience for me because I did CS before logic. So when I got to his list of 45 functions I realised I was looking at a computer program.
11:39:17jreicher(without a computer)
11:45:03dreamrealsee, that would be an interesting observation for me
11:45:11dreamrealwhat does a computer have to do with it?
11:47:17jreicherThat's easy to explain, but I would like to quote Godel directly. Let me grab the book.
11:47:30whaleywhat's a computer, but a second hand deviiiiice
11:49:19jreicher"Note added 28 August 1963. In consequence of later advances, in particular of the fact that due to A.M. Turing's work a precise and unquestionably adequate definition of the general notion of formal system can now be given, a completely general version of Theorems Vi and Xi is now possible."
11:49:58jreicherWhat Godel means by that is the conception of a computing machine defines what constitutes a formal system.
11:50:24jreicherSaid another way, a proof is formal if it can be checked by a computer. So our definition of a computer is fundamental.
11:51:26dreamrealI don't see the difference, though: the simulation theorem is unprovable except by implication, because if we were in a program, it could indeed act exactly like this. How is this NOT a program? We call it an open system because we don't know the inputs, but that's about it.
11:52:25jreicherThis is not about our experience, but about what we consider validity to be,
11:52:39dreamrealI don't see where that boundary is, though
11:52:50dreamrealI mean, I do, but it feels very artificial to me
11:53:22dreamrealwe walk from place to place but define "a race" as when we go quickly between THESE two places at THIS specific time
11:53:36dreamrealbut we still move about, how are those different except from artificial constraints
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13:08:34deebohas anyone added something like an annotation of @PleaseDontUseInREstApi for method scopes that would very loudly warn at run time via some mechanism if called from a place where it shouldn't be
13:08:59dreamrealno but this sounds like your chance to change the world!
13:09:14deebolike project level static analysis rules? preferrably without too much coding effort to add
13:09:20dreamrealI mean, you could do it with AOP, too
13:09:23dreamrealmodulith, maybe?
13:10:36deeboi'm refactoring some stuff that used to do var universe = loadUniverse(); return universe.filter(pk -> pk.eqeuals(request.id));
13:10:52deeboi want to very loudly complain in logs/ci/cd if someone does this again
13:11:06dreamrealdeprecate it?
13:12:06deeboloading full object graphs etc is very useful for some background work and tests, but most people don't realize the effect it has on api latency overall
13:15:08dreamrealWhy not put it only in tests, then?
13:15:29dreamrealinstead of SAYING "don't do this," make it so they can't
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13:27:09BombeYeah, subtlety is lost on some people. Make it illegal!
13:30:27ParaOne could create a @Landmine annotation and use aspect weaving to break any path which hits that.
13:31:20Para...or how about @Microtransaction("$ 1.99") which would look up credit cards from env and bill you for daring to use that.
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13:46:05deeboi shall proxy all calls to the method and System.exit(1) if target has annotation
13:46:10SquareI was under the impression you could get a spring boot up and running in no time with sensible defaults for db etc
13:46:20Squarelike a h2 db
13:47:13deeboyou can also just use the testcontainers jdbc driver if lazy
13:53:56Squarei never tried testcontainers. Is it docker based?
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13:58:36DoofusCanadensisyes
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13:59:50dreamrealSquare: what does "no time" mean? I mean, it'd take about 3 minutes with initializr
14:00:07dreamrealand it has sensible defaults but you still need a DB somewhere
14:01:17dreamrealWhat are you wanting to do? All of this is remarkably low effort, it's not "no time" but that's because "no time" has an actual meaning and doing anything in the real world takes *some time*
14:02:03Squaredreamreal, never heard of initializr. Looks simple enough
14:02:13dreamrealif you're spending more than five minutes getting a db *working* you're actually needing to learn what to do, because it's really easy: testcontainers is a thing (if you have OCI) - provide the dependency, set up the JDBC URL to include the tc prefix, done
14:02:28dreamrealbut spring will fall back to h2 by default for you
14:02:52dreamrealthere's rocket science and, well, rocket surgery, and then there's this
14:08:49Squarei feel I'm not in a situation where I have the time to get into testcontainers, so I'd prefer the 2026 crazy easy approach.
14:09:10dreamrealI thought the testcontainers thing was the 2024 crazy easy approach myself
14:09:24Squarei was under the impression @SpringBootApplication wo much else would do the job
14:09:39Square...and some "-starter" dependendencies
14:09:41dreamrealThe default is to use H2 inmemory unless they've changed it
14:09:50dreamrealbut that's inherently limiting in a lot of ways
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14:10:59Squarefinally. I had added more annotations than I needed (before I remember the importance of having the right "starter" dependencies on the CP)
14:19:29dreamrealSomeone really should try to write a book on spring.
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14:33:19DoofusCanadensisdo you know any writers?
14:33:34dreamrealOne or two.
14:33:47DoofusCanadensiscool
14:34:04DoofusCanadensis~books
14:34:04javabotSome good java books are listed at https://javachannel.org/java-books/. Also see ~general books
14:36:18SquareI thought internet replaced books?
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14:36:27Square...wait, AI replaced books.
14:36:35dreamrealno, the internet and the AIs use books to train their datasets
14:36:44DoofusCanadensisnah, I've read some spring books... they're good
14:36:47dreamrealso the books still have value, plus books have authors with whom you can actually converse
14:36:58dreamrealunless you're a doofus, then they're like "dang, go away"
14:37:02Squarei was mostly kidding
14:37:10dreamreal~poe
14:37:10javabotPoe's Law states that "without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake it for the genuine article." Swap creationism for ANY extremist POV. Corollary: don't use sarcasm (or HUMOR) without being obvious about it.
14:40:19DoofusCanadensisI resemble that remark
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14:51:50cheeser /3
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14:55:15DoofusCanadensis /4
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15:04:32Squarengl, just tried JPA criteria api with "window functions" and it seems to work.
15:04:57Square...I'm impressed
15:13:34dreamrealwhy?
15:13:38dreamrealI mean, that's good
15:13:42dreamrealbut why is it impressive?
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15:47:44Squaredreamreal, 1) I didnt know they had solved the group-wise max problem in SQL. 2) Can't ask for much more than working support in both h2 and hibernate.
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16:18:13dreamrealThat's good, but I'd have hoped those were baseline expectations :D
16:18:34dreamreallike "ooo, this is cool, this compiler works for simple inputs!" is... sort of not "cool," it's "what compilers should be doing"
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16:46:59Squaredreamreal, My expectations on "corporate software tools" are really low.
16:47:14DoofusCanadensisthat's weird
16:47:22Square.../java world
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16:54:02dreamrealSquare: that's interesting. Why would they be corporate software tools if they didn't work? Like, java's been around for 28 years... if it didn't work... why?
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17:11:28Squaredreamreal, Base functionality has worked, but there's always been lots of lose ends and half baked stuff. I'm referring to eco system stuff. Spring, Maven, hibernate, dbs, "Industry leading libraries" etc.
17:12:49SquareSome of it is probably because of good reasons. Too expensive to change, no active maintainers, etc.
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17:56:33cheeserdreamreal: 30 years!
17:57:56dreamrealMy first expeience with Java would have been 1998 - no, you know, you're right
17:58:17dreamrealI first encountered it around 1997, with 1.1, and it'd been out for a bit before that
17:59:11cheeserof course I am. ;)
17:59:21cheeser1995
18:00:12deavmihappy bday cheeser
18:00:41deavmiI didn't read the backlog. I will assume you turned 30, ;)
18:02:03cheeserfor the 3rd time! it's one of my favorite things to do.
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