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Wednesday, April 22, 2026

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10:06:41deebotested spotless finally, works great for our use, but the lack of easily achieved 'format-on-save' in e.g. idea is a bit meh
10:06:58deeboand still have to figure out formatting sql in text blocks in java code
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10:19:27Swayzetrad coding?
10:19:31Swayzewow
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10:40:56BombeDoes “trad coding” mean “using an IDE from 20 years ago?” Because IDEA can totally format on save.
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10:55:57dreamrealMaybe it's "format with spotless"? I don't think format on save matters - I use format on compile, personally
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11:09:28Swayzetrad coding means traditional coding
11:10:04Swayzeit means you're focusing on enginnering the solution + writing the code (instead of the machines)
11:10:11dreamrealI think we can figure that part out
11:10:37dreamrealI don't think trad coding has changed, honestly
11:10:55Swayzeit feel's kind of good as an engineer in "IT" to be able to hand off the building just like other engineers in other spheres like construction
11:11:35dreamrealWho here hasn't done that their entire career? Like, 100%? I can say it's only been 99.99999% for me - but who else?
11:11:39dreamrealAnyone?
11:11:52SwayzeI mean wtf do engineers have a place doing the actual building :/ it was a ridiculous concept to begin with born out of the fact that we had little other options
11:12:12dreamrealNobody does that any more and chances very good nobody here ever has
11:12:18dreamrealI mean, like I said, I did it ONCE
11:12:18Swayzeimagine an engineer doing the actual brick laying and wheelbarrowing sludge himself
11:12:26Swayzeon a non-personal project
11:12:39Swayzepretty crazy but it was the status quo for the longest, rip
11:13:03dreamrealwell, it was also traditional for bridge builders to cross their own bridges first :D
11:13:14Swayzejust as dont watch compilers compile we dont watch machines write code that is specifcally meant FOR THEM
11:13:37Swayzeim guessing some programing langauges are goign to become a lot more machine friendly and less human friendly
11:13:56dreamrealSwayze: I don't get it. Nobody's hand-rolled code in recent memory, unless they're designing chips.
11:14:09dreamrealand even then they're using a common instruction set.
11:16:31Swayzehttps://github.com/jinruoxinchen/LLM-Communication-Language
11:16:31javabotSwayze's title: "GitHub - jinruoxinchen/LLM-Communication-Language: LLM Communication Language specification and implementation · GitHub"
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11:20:11dreamrealSwayze: you there?
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12:04:21cheeseri'm gonna start a trad coder tiktok account.
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12:13:04deeboyeah idea does format-on-save, but none of the 3 spotless plugins available register as available to do that, so you end up writing what ever your IDE does, and then on git push it checks and formats as configured
12:13:30dreamrealwhy wait until push?
12:13:32deebogetting formatting errors in the ide would be nice but oh well, at least this will make everything uniform
12:14:17dreamrealI mean, my thought is: I don't care how the code is formatted until it compiles. If it gets formatted on compilation, it's going to be consistent; everyone wins. And if it gets committed without being formatted... well... nobody's bothered compiling it, eh
12:14:54deebowell yeah users can run it whenever, but i'd say most would expect similar integration than eslint+prettier have
12:15:34deebohave to test a bit more when there's time
12:16:02cheeseri run spotless before every compile
12:19:01dreamrealcheeser++
12:19:01nevetcheeser now has karma of 2.
12:19:10dreamrealI have it as part of the build
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12:19:59cheeseri have a parent pom that sets that up for all my projects
12:23:33dreamrealYeah, well, I have too many build systems in play to be able to do that consistently, and too many different deployed standards :/
12:23:49cheesermaven everywhere!
12:34:16dreamrealyeah, i'll tell my employer, whose gradle build is *incredible* and has existed since 2007, to shift over naow pls
12:34:58* dreamreal stamps his foot for emphasis
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13:01:04cheeserwe use gradle here and I kinda hate it.
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13:04:59dreamrealWhat makes you hate it? (Curious for the reasoning: i have my own problems with it.)
13:05:52dreamrealAlthough I WILL say that I have a coworker (who's in the channel!) who is a freaking gradle *wizard*
13:07:26cheeserthe daemon/caching bits get in the way a lot. i disabled the daemon globally.
13:07:43cheesera simple clean requires so much setup and configuration.
13:08:01cheeserand of course the daily changes to plugin and task APIs
13:08:08dreamrealyeah, we have some interesting requirements there ourselves
13:10:23dreamrealI usually don't run into the caching/daemon problems as much because I tend to retain current dependency chains; working with IDEA and gradle is a drag because modifying the libs.toml is so clunky. The daily updates to the APIs don't matter as much because we lock in gradle versions with the wrapper, although those changes were EXACTLY why I stopped using gradle in my writing.
13:11:19dreamrealI was thinking abou tit, because gradle is so much more succinct in print, but found the idea of having to have an explanation block that said "look, this worked in gradle 8.5.1a on this date, okay?" offensive
13:11:55cheeserlet's make a toml based build tool.
13:12:19dreamrealmaven can already do that!
13:12:31dreamrealjust because nobody in the history of ever has used it...
13:13:02dreamrealactually, it's amusing to see how many people are coming out of the woodwork with new build tools these days
13:16:50cheeserbevin's bld looks interesting. i'm sad kobalt never caught on.
13:18:03dreamrealYeah, agreed. I think ANY build system's going to have a hell of a hill to climb to unseat maven or gradle. gradle keeps trying to make it easy, but ...
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13:18:43dreamrealit IS kinda fun to watch people sneer at maven and fly to gradle, only to shut up about how great their build tool is as they endure its actual nature
13:19:25dreamrealthey tend to go from "ew maven uses xml" to "ahhhh gradle's so niiiiice such short build files" to "well we locked versions" to "at least it's not xml, right? is this thing on?"
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14:27:32* CodeGeek!~codegeek@about/java/CodeGeek changed the topic to: Welcome! || Read Channel Rules at https://javachannel.org/ before participating. || Paste limit is two lines; ~pastebin lists options. || No applets, please. || Minecraft, Android, and Javascript all have their own channel. || You are being logged.
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15:23:40* CodeGeek!~codegeek@about/java/CodeGeek changed the topic to: Welcome! || Read Channel Rules at https://javachannel.org/ before participating. || Paste limit is two lines; ~pastebin lists options. || No applets, please. || Minecraft, Android, and Javascript all have their own channel. || You are being logged.
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18:22:10ptomlidreamreal bytecode looks cool, will add it to my feeds
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18:31:05dreamrealthank you! Tell your friends! It's the best! The best ever! :D
18:31:45ptomli:D
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20:22:31DoofusCanadensisdreamreal: yeah, your site looks pretty
20:23:00dreamrealI'd rather it be useful than pretty but thank you
20:23:29DoofusCanadensisconsidering how heavy most sites feel these days...
20:23:38DoofusCanadensisI've got it queued up to read later
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21:21:34dreamrealBTW that site is "mine" but it's not meant to be solely sourced to me: if you think something's interesting, put it in! It has open submission (no account required) and here on IRC you can put in a url with !suggest [url here]
21:21:58dreamrealIf you're relying on ME to find all the interesting stuff you're going to get a specific view of the industry: I'm pretty wide-ranging but I don't see everything by a long shot
21:22:44dreamrealBCN was originally intended to replace the channel blog, I was going to move over the content from javachannel.org to BCN to preserve it, but it's not really MY content to do that with and I never really brought it up to cheeser
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21:38:19DoofusCanadensisyeah, I noticed that with some non-dreamreal posts
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22:15:34dreamrealI'd actually prefer to have the minority of posts
22:16:43DoofusCanadensisI know
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