ByteCode.News
RSS
SubmitLog in

Community

Chat Logs

Friday, February 27, 2026

  1. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #119: Populate lib-blog with blog domain services - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/119
  2. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #117: Harden anonymous post submissions - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/117
  3. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #116: Anonymous post submission rejected despite design intent - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/116
  4. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #115: Add caching to factoid reads - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/115
  5. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #114: Add factoid usage audit data - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/114
  6. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #113: Add ingress guardrails for long-running operations - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/113
  7. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #118: Updating to specifically test and allow anonymous posts - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/118
  8. bluedreamreal: `git branch -m main master`
  9. jreicherWoke. :p
  10. bluedreamreal has been around too many san fransciso people :P
  11. dreamrealdreamreal doesn't get caught up in such crap. It's a label. github has defaults and I don't care to signal to YOUR group any more than I care for others'. Deal.
  12. bluedreamreal: you implicitly do get caught up in such nonsense, whether you like it or not, if you give in to woke insanity
  13. blueyou just choose to frame as I don't care :P
  14. dreamrealIt ends up allowing THEM to control you (or me) just as much as anything else
  15. dreamreal"Oh no they declared pink a gay color now I despise pink"
  16. dreamrealI literally do not care
  17. dreamrealI don't care to serve the "unwoke" crowd any more than I care to serve the "woke" group
  18. blueshrug; changing the default branch will take 10s of your life. which you contend is getting 'caught up' in stuff. master has been the default for forever; it doesn't represent the unwoke crowd, it represents the baseline; it's what git itself uses (at least until v3), and it what the official git documentation uses
  19. blueI used it well before woke was a thing and will use it longer after it's completely burnt down
  20. dreamrealThen do so! I find that ten seconds to be nothing but serving a particular master, and I don't LIKE masters
  21. dreamrealso I stick with 'main' as it costs me nothing and has no meaning for me other than a default
  22. dreamrealI know of ONE person who really gets caught up in it now and... he's on this channel
  23. blueI will quote the terrible barack obama, who got ONE thing right in his own life: "not choosing is also a choice"
  24. dreamrealI've worked with people who were rabid that 'master' was offensive; I thought it was silly but spending three days arguing over the semantics was more than I cared about: I needed them to be able to hold their noses and work
  25. * dreamreal nods at Neil Peart
  26. dreamrealI want my choices to matter and this one doesn't
  27. dreamrealI've already spent more energy on it this morning than I have in the last year, except every other time you bring it up
  28. blueit doesn't matter they think master is offensive. if they think it is, they're morons. but this was a non-problem until the woke crowd came along. we used to be able to talk about master as the canonical branch, and there's no good reason to pay any tax on that now
  29. dreamrealIt's not a problem NOW
  30. blueit is
  31. dreamrealit does not HURT us to talk about main vs master
  32. bluebecause when I fork your problem, I need to rename it, because all my scripts and tools use master
  33. blueyour project*
  34. bluethere is no way to know the default branch in git, because there is no one. in lack of that, tools need to be wired somehow, and main branches break that assumption
  35. blueyou're making people's lives unnecessarily harder with this
  36. dreamrealOh man
  37. dreamrealOkay, it's a good thing to start your morning off with a laugh
  38. blueI literally spent a day debugging one of my tools the other day because someone moved to main
  39. dreamrealyou should have led with that
  40. bluemaybe it's a non-problem to you, to me it is
  41. dreamrealI get it
  42. dreamrealI see "moving to main" in 2026 CE ridiculous
  43. dreamrealbut I see "moving to master" just as ridiculous :D
  44. dreamrealit's virtue signals all the way down.
  45. dreamrealWhat % frum are you?
  46. dreamrealhurry up, I need to know before I can look at your issue, it might not be kosher enough!
  47. dreamrealoh wait I don't care
  48. dreamrealsolved
  49. blueit's funny how people complain all the time you need standards to work more effectively together, and then they are quicker than lightning to rid themselves of the one quasi-standard we had no problems with
  50. dreamrealit's also amusing to me that deploying from a dev branch (and leaving it there, which is what I had done) was less of an issue than the main branch's name :D
  51. dreamrealWell, some people, some very NOISY people, got caught up in it
  52. dreamrealI find main vs master an asshole issue, and were it to come up in an interview I'd disqualify the candidate
  53. bluewhy? it's a standards issue, your framing is completely wrong
  54. bluegit has no default branch, so a convention is in order
  55. bluethis is not hard to understand
  56. dreamrealIt's the wrong standard to care about
  57. blueis it really?
  58. blueI work with git daily
  59. dreamrealRight, and it has defaults, and I never bothered to change it
  60. blueseems like something I should care about it
  61. dreamrealwhen master switched to main in github, I didn't care and don't care about it
  62. blueso you don't care when others make choices for you, is that what you're saying? because you seemed to indicate something else above
  63. dreamrealAsshole move: "Romans need to drive on the side of the road I like" non-asshole move: "What side of the road do Romans drive on?"
  64. bluesomething about not serving any masters and so on
  65. dreamrealI seem to remember someone's anger about libertarianism and how horrible pedantic libertarianism is
  66. blueyes, when libertarianism doesn't deal with real life morals. this isn't applicable here
  67. dreamrealThis isn't a real life moral :D
  68. blueI can't convince you, but let me tell you that as a principle, I don't work with main branches, so I'll be sending PRs from my master fork, which you probably have no problem with, since that's the side of the road I drive on?
  69. dreamrealand there's an actual difference: nobody's standing across from those peoples' yards stabbing puppies, so your rage at their imagined reaction in the drawing room is unnecessary. Pony up and stab a REAL puppy and see how they react, then judge. (And then burn, because... puppies.)
  70. * dreamreal won't care, because he is capable of managing more than one worldview as a paradigm for others at a time
  71. blue(I like puppies though, why should I stab them)
  72. dreamrealissue PRs away, I'll be fine
  73. dreamrealto make a point, of course
  74. dreamrealpoint's there, gotta make it!
  75. dreamrealcan't allow others to possibly be willing to say something they don't accept in the real world
  76. bluenah that's not my style. it's just my all dev tools are wired to master and I'm not willing to change that
  77. blueI will also generally call it master, fyi, even if it's called differently, because that's the side of the road I drive on!
  78. bluenot willing to spend any mental energy on maintaining two terms for what should be one
  79. dreamrealAnd I will SOMEHOW be able to integrate that, so when you do, I'll manage... bleeding... on the side of the road... "he said... 'master'... aaaaagh"
  80. blueyes
  81. bluefunnily: had you created the branch locally first (the normal git flow) you'd already have a problem :P
  82. bluewell, branch/repo, I mean
  83. dreamrealI do so appreciate how you think how you do it is the only normal way
  84. blueit's not. but it's the standard git way
  85. blueI do create repos using gh too
  86. dreamrealIt's your standard git way. I haven't used git init in a long time.
  87. blueregrettably though, we have a generation of devs who equoate git with github, which is really dumb
  88. bluedumb & dangerous, I should say, given it's microsoft
  89. dreamrealThis is part of why I do tech interviews the way I do, incidentally: I'll be kinda ridiculous on purpose. One interview that I particularly enjoyed, I said "pardon me, I'm gonna use a terrible scottish accent for this interview" and continued... in my normal slightly-southern drawl. The interview actually stopped me to point out that that wasn't a scottish accent - and I said "well, it's a REALLY
  90. dreamrealTERRIBLE scottish accent." His reaction told me a lot about how the interview was going to go, because it signals some of the things he cares about. (He did fine; another person argued with me about it.)
  91. bluedreamreal: that's a fine difference, which is: you paying someone to do something vs FOSS. At work, I'm using mac, I also work with java. Both things I probably wouldn't do it privately. So if my employer used main, I wouldn't care: he's paying me for his nonsense. This is completely different in projects I contribute my free time to, I hope you understand the distinction, or it has merit
  92. bluethere's a fine difference*
  93. bluetherefore, your rant about prospective employees is irrelevant here, because we're of the same opinion. If a candidate told me he has a problem with main (or master), I'd see it as a negative point. I'm PAYING him to shut up about branch names
  94. dreamrealDude, I have no intention of forcing you to do anything you don't want to do, regardless of your reason for not wanting to do it
  95. dreamrealI don't want to even ASK you to do what you don't want to do
  96. blueI understand. But understand some things are IMPLIED. You use main, that's fine: if I want to contribute, the implied request is "use main". I can't force you to switch, so the compromise is me using a fork instead of committing directly. Same for docker: I can't use docker, but I'm not going to start sending PRs for nspawn, and at the same time, I still need to get it working locally, which is why I enlisted
  97. bluephaleth's help, because I absolutely SUCK at devops
  98. bluemy devops skills are so bad that I'd rather install things on the host than mess around with docker bridges. I'm TRYING to fix this on the new computer, hence why I asked him to help
  99. dreamrealI suck at devops right along with you. ANy time I can find a competent devops guy who's invested, they're golden. i know some people who're absolutely RIDICULOUS IRL whose oddities I endure because 1) they're still people but 2) devops
  100. blueregardless of the master/main discussion, I'm REALLY missing an ordinary workflow where issues=branches, and committing to master isn't possible
  101. blue(not in nevet: as a general thing, I mean)
  102. dreamrealI'm about to switch nevet to requiring PRs to merge to main, it's getting stable enough where that is going to start mattering
  103. blueGH is doing something similar, but only in the backend; issues and PRs are in the same DB table in GH, and issues get branches created for them, they just don't advertise that
  104. bluebut my ideal flow is: issue #1 is created; system creates issue/1, as soon as the issue is accepted by maintainers; push access: OP+maintainers+assignees. merging access: maintainers
  105. bluethe GH distinction of issue/PR is very, very confusing to me
  106. dreamrealWell, a given issue can have multiple PRs
  107. dreamrealmultiple branches
  108. bluethat's my point: an issue *needs* to be a PR; one branch, with potentially multiple commits. nothing stops you from creating subbranches for that
  109. bluean issue is a full item of work, IOW
  110. dreamrealWhat if there are multiple ways to address the issue?
  111. blueconcurring implementations?
  112. dreamrealLike, one person does it with a database, another does it with threads, another person says "ooo here's my chance to use rust"
  113. bluethe means the issue is too broad. it's really three issues
  114. * dreamreal sighs, watching the humor fly past blue
  115. dreamrealOkay, fine, let's be a little more limited: one person does it with a subselect, the other with a view, and the third does a brute force that actually handles timeseries better: all actually address the issue in scope, but have different strengths and weaknesses: issue is the same, three branches, three PRs, maybe more because aliens.
  116. blueis this a real thing: if you're working in a team, you'd discuss this aforehand. why would you have three people doing three different things?
  117. blueand then all PRing it into master???
  118. dreamrealActually, I'm working on an issue with nevet like that: #113. I think the scale of the original issue is right but too broad for now, so I'm fixing it based on a comment. But I can totally see someone else going "wait the integration layer is fine for this, what if we compare"
  119. dreamrealJust because it's a PR doesn't mean it's ACCEPTED
  120. blueyes; but an issue isn't accepted either; only when it's closed and merged onto master
  121. dreamrealSo why would you presume otherwise for everything else? Lots of different workflows out there; it's nice to be prescriptive but not so great to be proscriptive. Remember RCS? SVN?
  122. dreamrealHell, clearcase, which I'd forgotten about: IBM had a few of them, before git took over, some were great, others... not so great :D
  123. blueHow is this proscriptive: the only thing the system would do is allow you to define rules for the repository. And the rules *I* would set is: no direct committing to master, only FF merges from issue branches. What's the problem?
  124. dreamrealThat's a fine rule, and you should enforce it, especially for yourself, and nevet's about three steps away from it itself. nevet's been fast and loose so far mostly because this iteration was created on a lark, because I got annoyed at the streampack design enough to try something different one morning.
  125. dreamrealAnd being proscriptive IN A TEAM is different than being proscriptive in a tool. Team proscriptions good, tool proscriptions baaaaaad.
  126. blueyes, and I wasn't complainign about nevet, was I?
  127. blue13:38 < blue> (not in nevet: as a general thing, I mean)
  128. dreamrealNo, I was just making the comment. It's something people do when they converse.
  129. dreamrealkarma changed, btw: subject lengths are ~= 45 chars (over that is considered to be conversation, not karma) and it has some other rules about specific names that help
  130. dreamrealSo you can now talk about C++
  131. dreamrealC++++
  132. nevetC++ has neutral karma.
  133. dreamreal:D
  134. bluethat's great -- so we can finally talk like normal mortals?
  135. blueNICE!
  136. blueI'm glad you came around about that
  137. dreamrealYes, it has an emdash cutout for morons who use typesetting rules WHEN THEY TYPE MANUALLY
  138. dreamrealWell, you were so stupid and annoying about it that I wondered if there was a way to write karma to compensate for low IQ
  139. blueof course, would have been better if you did that before I complained, but sometimes a man needs to see the results of his actions for himself
  140. dreamrealand it handles C++ and J++ very specifically, and THIS is probably a karma action :D
  141. dreamrealOoo
  142. dreamrealI shoudl crank up logging in the karma to walk through how that didn't trip as karma - actually, it's probably the last J++
  143. dreamreal(if a language is the last token in a subject, it assumes it's not a karma action)
  144. bluenevet is gearing up to be almost perfect now
  145. dreamrealYou have some very very very inconsistent measures of "perfect"
  146. blueparse it as "ai perfect". fulfilling all my needs
  147. bluedreamreal: what's the business case for nevet, anyway?
  148. bluedreamreal: does nevet have an rss watcher service?
  149. dreamrealrss list
  150. dreamrealgrr and yes
  151. bluehow do I add https://primate.run/blog.rss in the #primate channel?
  152. dreamrealfeed list
  153. nevetEnigmastation.com - https://enigmastation.com/feed.xml
  154. blueis it possible?
  155. dreamrealhold on
  156. dreamrealyes
  157. dreamrealokay, interesting: that's definitely an RSS feed, need to figure out why the discovery is failing
  158. dreamrealworking on a different issue right now, but that's next
  159. bluek
  160. dreamrealI'm working on adding timeouts for operations, which has some fascinating implications for virtual threads
  161. bluefor what operations?
  162. dreamrealbut that RSS failure's pretty important
  163. dreamrealall of them!
  164. dreamreallike the dispatch needs to have some way to measure/address poorly-behaved operations
  165. dreamrealblue: .. errr.. early diagnosis is that that url returns a 404 with a valid RSS body
  166. dreamrealcurl -sI https://primate.run/blog.rss # shows HTTP/2 404
  167. blueI get 200
  168. bluecurl also shows 404, no idea why, let me look into it
  169. bluedreamreal: if you open it in the browser, does devtools show 200?
  170. dreamrealit does
  171. dreamrealokay, HEAD is returning 404 but GET is returning 200
  172. blueyes
  173. blueHEAD isn't defined on this route
  174. blue➜ ~ curl -v https://primate.run/blog.rss
  175. blue< HTTP/2 200
  176. blue-I forces HEAD
  177. blueHEAD isn't defined for the /blog.rss route
  178. bluedo you NEED HEAD for some reason?
  179. blueI mean, I can add it, I just don't see the point
  180. dreamrealno, was just reporting what I found as I tested
  181. blueis it for periodic caching?
  182. dreamrealHEAD is expected to be lighter than GET so it's usually a good first test
  183. bluehm
  184. blue`According to the HTTP spec, a server should support HEAD anywhere it supports GET.`
  185. dreamrealbasically "show me the headers, only the headers, that a GET would see so I can see if I want to download all 1.4MB of your CSS"
  186. bluecan you file a primate issue?
  187. dreamrealyes
  188. bluesomething like: add an app option to mirror GET routes as HEAD unless a HEAD route was created manually
  189. bluedefault: false
  190. * Chronos likes "main" better than "master" because it's shorter
  191. ChronosAm I allowed to have that preference for that reason?
  192. dreamrealI find I struggle to care either way: master vs main is WAY under the TCP packet barrier, those two chars aren't going to make much of a difference
  193. Chronos(Mostly just poking fun at the debate above, heh.)
  194. dreamrealit deserves it
  195. dreamrealChronos: so what did you think of teh safecracker thing?
  196. Chronosdreamreal: safecracker thing?
  197. dreamrealhttps://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/98
  198. dreamrealit's sort of like mastermind but way easier for IRC, since it uses digits and not a more limited set of constraints
  199. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #120: Bug: https://primate.run/blog.rss is NOT being discovered when being added - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/120
  200. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #121: Adding operation timeout - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/121
  201. dreamrealblue: found it. Bug was in client; was not sending an Accept header.
  202. blueoh? is that needed?
  203. dreamrealWell, adding one fixes it
  204. dreamrealcurl adds */* by default, I wasn't sending one at all
  205. dreamrealNow I'm adding `application/rss+xml, application/atom+xml, application/xml, text/xml, text/html, */*;q=0.8`
  206. bluethanks for the issue, dreamreal
  207. blueI'm a bit conflicted how to namespace this feature.. putting it under http feels a bit too lowlevel
  208. dreamrealWell it IS HTTP
  209. bluethat's why it'd be an opt-in with default false, since it's magic
  210. dreamrealhuh, that quit message...
  211. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #122: Fixing RSS discovery - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/122
  212. Chronosdreamreal: safecracker looks neat!
  213. Chronossafecracker
  214. ChronosAwww.
  215. Chronosnevet doesn't love me. :(
  216. dreamrealChronos: I haven't written it!
  217. ChronosOh, heh!
  218. dreamrealThe operation is still an open issue!
  219. * Chronos should probably upload his ancient IRC bot to GitHub for posterity.
  220. dreamreal"Chronos: hey, the *proposal* at issue XYZ, does that look interesting? Shoudl we write it?" chronos: "Wow, that looks so cool now that I've stepped into the future and you already wrote it by the time I pretended to look at it!"
  221. dreamrealbut the neat thing about the safecracker operation is that it literally changed timed events in nevet just by being proposed :D
  222. ChronosGet'r'done!
  223. dreamrealI mean, considering I was waiting for you to give it a thumbs up or thumbs down... now I can :D
  224. dreamrealChronos: the safecracker thing made me revise timed events: now nevet has a tick operation that things can listen for. github and rss now use THAT with an offset timer ("last poll was X... next poll is Y... is it after Y yet?") which separates it from the cron scheduling they WERE using
  225. ChronosVery nice
  226. dreamrealRSS and github were fine with really coarse granularity, like hours and minutes... safecracker needs seconds
  227. bluedreamreal: http.autoHead: p.boolean.default(false), good?
  228. dreamrealblue: +1
  229. dreamrealblue: ++ too
  230. nevetblue now has karma of 2.
  231. bluek. I'm actually gonna see how I can implement it in a way that's nondumb. because I don't want to create senseless HEAD routes for every GET route for which a HEAD route does not exist. it's gonna go in the request processing logic
  232. bluethis is a classic case of "better data structures aren't good"
  233. bluethe problem is primate doesn't even do this kind of matching... gonna have to wire it down
  234. bluepossibly the HTTP router will need the same option
  235. bluewhich is probably not a bad idea, anyway
  236. ChronosJust testing something -- because I'm curious.
  237. ChronosJust testing something--because I'm curious.
  238. blueChronos: he fixed that
  239. dreamrealWellyeah, it's thorny. Maybe on a HEAD, try to resolve the head specifically, and if the flag is set true AND the head fails, search for GET?
  240. ChronosInteresting.
  241. ChronosJust testing something-- because I'm curious.
  242. nevetJust testing something now has karma of -1.
  243. ChronosAh ha!
  244. ChronosJust testing something --because I'm curious.
  245. dreamrealActually, that might be a bug too: that second one shoudl have triggered. OH, NO IT SHOULDN'T!
  246. ChronosNice enhancement.
  247. dreamrealChronos: that helps cut out karma operations where *program arguments* are being mentioned
  248. bluethe positive case there is arguable ok for a karma feature. I'm on the fence on that
  249. bluearguably*
  250. dreamreallike, if I say do javac --version - that's NOT a karma operation
  251. dreamrealso it's looking for things that LOOK LIKE arguments, since nevet tends to hang out in programming channels
  252. Chronosfor (int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
  253. nevetfor (int i = 0; i < 10; i now has karma of 1.
  254. Chronostsk tsk.
  255. dreamrealno offense but damn you to hell
  256. ChronosLol!
  257. dreamrealnevet is RIGHT here: I hereby declare that this is why you use a ranged stream, so karma isn't triggered
  258. bluedreamreal: https://github.com/primate-run/primate/blob/master/packages/core/src/private/serve/App.ts#L475
  259. Chronosdreamreal: Sure, whatever helps you sleep at night ;)
  260. dreamreal"I would have used a for loop here, as it's very clear and straightforward and complete idiots would understand but noooooo range(0,10).forEach( i->{}) it is, so karma isn't triggered
  261. bluethis will probably need to become: OR `verb === "head" && verbs.get !== undefined`
  262. dreamrealidiots untie!
  263. bluebut that's only half of the story. would still need to serve only the heads, and a null body
  264. blueheaders*
  265. dreamrealwell
  266. Chronosdreamreal: that's a deep subject to get into
  267. dreamrealthat looks right BUT don't forget: HEAD is HTTP, so there's a lack of formal requirement
  268. Chronos</dadjoke>
  269. dreamrealHEAD *can* return the body
  270. bluewe're talking about the autocase here
  271. blueif you define a head route yourself, you're gonna get what you asked for
  272. dreamrealI get it, BUT if you're going to rely on decay, I'd say "do the simple thing" and return the GET
  273. dreamrealif someone wants only the HEAD content they need to say so, because it literally means different things, and the fallback is stating "no, they're the same for idiot clients"
  274. bluedreamreal: I think you're actually mistaken here. the HTTP spec dictates HEAD must not return a body
  275. dreamrealDoes it say it MUST not? Ooo, the W3C is getting good at last. Then there you are.
  276. bluehttps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9110#section-9.3.2
  277. nevetRFC 9110: HTTP Semantics
  278. blue`The HEAD method is identical to GET except that the server MUST NOT send content in the response.`
  279. dreamrealThere you are, then
  280. dreamreal~rfc 9110
  281. dreamrealrfc 9110
  282. nevetrfc 9110: 9110: HTTP Semantics (https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9110.html)
  283. bluehence
  284. blue15:27 < blue> but that's only half of the story. would still need to serve only the heads, and a null body
  285. dreamrealPrefer the specs operation with nevet!
  286. dreamrealIt helps populate the factoids
  287. dreamrealrfc 9110
  288. nevetrfc 9110 is 9110: HTTP Semantics. URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9110.html
  289. blueis it searchable?
  290. blue?rfc http
  291. bluehmpf
  292. bluefeelsbadman
  293. dreamrealWhat do you mean? The *factoids* are
  294. dreamrealthe specs plugin does not aggressively search, no
  295. blueno, can I search the rfc body with nevet?
  296. dreamrealNo, it doesn't cache the rfc body
  297. bluebody of work, I mean
  298. dreamrealEventually I'd like it to summarize the spec via AI but not yet
  299. blue?rf http would return all rfcs containing 'http' in their titles
  300. blue?rfc*
  301. dreamrealyes, that'd be awesome but incredibly verbose
  302. dreamrealbut like I said, it doesn't do that
  303. bluemaybe do a 5 cutoff or so
  304. bluethe thing is this: I needed to look the rfc first in my browser, and then I already had the link: so going back here and doing !rfc <n> was.. an indirection
  305. bluelook up*
  306. dreamreal"it has the wrong priority, dreamreal! You chose date order, it's OBVIOUSLY the relevant RFC I wanted first!"
  307. dreamrealblue: Oh, I know.
  308. bluean rfc title search would be useful, I think
  309. bluepreferably case insensitive
  310. dreamrealIt would, but I need to figure out the semantics for it
  311. dreamrealsomeone should file an issue for that, actually
  312. dreamrealwhile I'm working on other things :D
  313. dreamrealthis also has the side effect of being spanned to the other specs: all the spec operations right now are peers, and search means specifics per spec class
  314. blueask what's the http rfc defining how HEAD works?
  315. nevetRFC 7231 defines HTTP/1.1 semantics, including the HEAD method. HEAD is identical to GET except the server must not send a message body in the response - only headers are returned.
  316. bluefeelsbadman :(
  317. blueit's 9110 NEVET
  318. dreamrealtell anthropic, not nevet
  319. dreamrealnevet doesn't care
  320. dreamrealask what's the difference between rfc 7231 and rfc 9110
  321. nevetRFC 9110 (2022) obsoletes RFC 7231 (2014) as the core HTTP semantics specification. RFC 9110 consolidates and updates the HTTP/1.1 specification with clarifications, corrections, and lessons learned from nearly a decade of implementation experience, while maintaining backward compatibility with the fundamental protocol defined in 7231.
  322. blueask what's the http rfc defining how HEAD works; ignore obsoleted ones?
  323. nevetRFC 9110 defines how HEAD works. It's the current HTTP semantics specification that replaced the obsoleted RFC 2616.
  324. blueGOOD.
  325. dreamrealhm, interesting potential revision for the ask - "ignore outdated references if more current references exist."
  326. blueyes!
  327. bluein which case, it IS nevet and not anthropic :P though the anthropic default is dumb here
  328. blueanyway, I had it filed under HEAD must not have body, which I guess was standardised in 2014
  329. blueso before, you'd have been right indeed
  330. bluethis makes sense too for the caching use cache
  331. blueuse case*
  332. dreamrealNo, I'd have been WRONG, because I was suggesting that the behavior was SUPPOSED to be not to supply a body but that it didn't really matter, when the spec says compliance actually means something
  333. dreamrealit still gets ignored a lot but that's not the point
  334. bluebtw, interestingly, GET is the other way around: it must not have a body
  335. dreamrealwait what
  336. dreamrealGET ... the whole purpose is to get the body, o?
  337. dreamrealno?
  338. bluethe request
  339. bluethe body must be null
  340. dreamrealHEAD - headers, no body.. OH
  341. dreamrealright, sorry, you're talking ingress
  342. blueyou're talking about response
  343. dreamrealright
  344. blueso GET requests must not have a body, whilst HEAD responses must also not have a body
  345. blueand I assume, HEAD requests must also not have a body
  346. bluesince "otherwise identical"
  347. dreamrealyeah
  348. bluethe nevet algorithm can still be lazy, dreamreal
  349. blueit can try for a HEAD request first
  350. bluethe golden path is the server supporting it
  351. dreamrealHEAD was *me*, not nevet
  352. dreamrealnevet uses GET
  353. bluegood
  354. dreamrealHEAD was me going "what does this even respond with"
  355. dreamrealversion
  356. nevetnevet 1.0 | b3a39e4 (main) | Built 2026-02-27 09:05:20 EST
  357. dreamrealsafecracker
  358. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #123: Adding safecracker game - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/123
  359. dreamrealhmm
  360. dreamrealhangman
  361. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
  362. dreamrealhangman a
  363. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a) -- No 'a'. 5 lives left.
  364. dreamrealhangman r
  365. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r) -- No 'r'. 4 lives left.
  366. dreamrealhangman s
  367. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ s _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s) -- 's' is in the word!
  368. dreamrealhangman t
  369. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ s _ _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s, t) -- No 't'. 3 lives left.
  370. dreamrealhangman l
  371. nevetHangman: l _ _ _ _ s _ _ _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, l, r, s, t) -- 'l' is in the word!
  372. dreamrealhangman n
  373. nevetHangman: l _ _ _ _ s _ n _ (3/6 lives, guessed: a, l, n, r, s, t) -- 'n' is in the word!
  374. dreamrealhangman g
  375. nevetHangman: l _ _ _ _ s _ n _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, g, l, n, r, s, t) -- No 'g'. 2 lives left.
  376. dreamrealhangman o
  377. nevetHangman: l _ _ o _ s _ n _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, g, l, n, o, r, s, t) -- 'o' is in the word!
  378. dreamrealhangman i
  379. nevetHangman: l i _ o _ s i n _ (2/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, n, o, r, s, t) -- 'i' is in the word!
  380. dreamrealhangman p
  381. nevetHangman: l i _ o _ s i n _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, n, o, p, r, s, t) -- No 'p'. 1 life left.
  382. dreamrealhangman m
  383. nevetHangman: l i m o _ s i n _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t) -- 'm' is in the word!
  384. dreamrealhangman u
  385. nevetHangman: l i m o u s i n _ (1/6 lives, guessed: a, g, i, l, m, n, o, p, r, s, t, u) -- 'u' is in the word!
  386. dreamrealhangman e
  387. nevetYou got it! The word was 'limousine'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
  388. dreamrealsafecracker
  389. dreamrealhrm
  390. dreamrealgrrr, gotta figure out what's going on there
  391. dreamrealbut have other things I need to do
  392. dreamrealsafecracker
  393. nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
  394. dreamrealpffft there it goes!
  395. dreamrealsafecracker 1 2 3 4
  396. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < < < < (4:46 to go!)
  397. dreamrealsafecracker 5 5 5 5
  398. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < < = < (4:37 to go!)
  399. botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
  400. dreamrealsafecracker 7 7 5 7
  401. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > < = = (4:14 to go!)
  402. dreamrealsafecracker 8 6 5 7
  403. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > < = = (4:05 to go!)
  404. botSafecracker: 3:58 remaining!
  405. dreamrealsafecracker 9 8 5 7
  406. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > = = = (3:57 to go!)
  407. dreamrealsafecracker 0 8 5 7
  408. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < = = = (3:52 to go!)
  409. dreamrealsafecracker 2 8 5 7
  410. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < = = = (3:36 to go!)
  411. dreamrealsafecracker 3 8 5 7
  412. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: < = = = (3:30 to go!)
  413. botSafecracker: 3:27 remaining!
  414. dreamrealsafecracker 10 8 5 7
  415. nevetError: Guess must be 4 digits (0-9) separated by spaces. Example: safecracker 3 0 3 0
  416. dreamrealsafecracker 9 8 5 7
  417. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > = = = (3:20 to go!)
  418. dreamrealsafecracker 8 8 5 7
  419. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: > = = = (3:15 to go!)
  420. dreamrealsafecracker 6 8 5 7
  421. nevetdreamreal has broken the code! Way to go, dreamreal!
  422. dreamrealwoo I'm the best!
  423. dreamrealsafecracker
  424. nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
  425. dreamreal(don't play)
  426. botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
  427. botSafecracker: 3:58 remaining!
  428. botSafecracker: 3:27 remaining!
  429. botSafecracker: 2:57 remaining!
  430. botSafecracker: 2:26 remaining!
  431. botSafecracker: 1:56 remaining!
  432. botSafecracker: 1:26 remaining!
  433. botSafecracker: 0:55 remaining!
  434. botSafecracker: 0:24 remaining!
  435. botTime's up! The combination was: 9 6 3 3
  436. dreamrealinteresting drift
  437. dreamrealI know why it does it: it calculates the next offset from the timestamp and not the previous offset. Easy to fix.
  438. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #124: feature/98 safecracker game - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/124
  439. dreamrealsafecracker
  440. nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
  441. dreamrealagain, please don't play
  442. dreamrealkarma chronos
  443. nevetchronos has karma of 3.
  444. botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
  445. dreamrealokay, cool. Evertything still runs, the game is just "an additional mechanism waiting for events."
  446. botSafecracker: 3:59 remaining!
  447. dreamrealdrift seems better already.
  448. botSafecracker: 3:29 remaining!
  449. dreamrealtag ide
  450. nevetFactoids tagged 'ide': eclipse, ide, idea, and netbeans
  451. botSafecracker: 2:59 remaining!
  452. botSafecracker: 2:29 remaining!
  453. botSafecracker: 1:59 remaining!
  454. dreamrealthe safecracker isn't even an additional thread: it's actually a filter that watches for events that match a criterion.
  455. botSafecracker: 1:29 remaining!
  456. dreamreal"i'm going to ignore timer events until a tripwire is hit. Oh, look! There it is! Time notification."
  457. botSafecracker: 0:59 remaining!
  458. botSafecracker: 0:29 remaining!
  459. botTime's up! The combination was: 1 3 4 0
  460. dreamrealWoohoo! Drift fixed.
  461. Chronosdreamreal: Can nevet handle hangman and safecracker being run at the same time?
  462. dreamrealsafecracker
  463. nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
  464. dreamrealhangman
  465. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
  466. dreamrealsafecracker 2 1 1 2
  467. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = < < < (4:49 to go!)
  468. dreamrealhangman a
  469. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a) -- No 'a'. 5 lives left.
  470. dreamrealsafecracker 2 5 5 5
  471. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (4:36 to go!)
  472. dreamreal~hangman r
  473. botSafecracker: 4:28 remaining!
  474. dreamreal~hangman r
  475. dreamrealhangman r
  476. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r) -- No 'r'. 4 lives left.
  477. dreamrealYou can play too, it's not tied to a single player!
  478. dreamrealBut as you can see, yes
  479. Chronossafecracker 2 7 5 8
  480. nevetsafecracker result for someone: = > = > (4:00 to go!)
  481. botSafecracker: 3:58 remaining!
  482. Chronossafecracker 2 8 5 9
  483. nevetsafecracker result for someone: = > = > (3:48 to go!)
  484. dreamrealIt's ALL an event stream all the way down
  485. ChronosWait, > means the actual # should be bigger, right?
  486. botSafecracker: 3:28 remaining!
  487. Chronossafecracker 2 9 5 10
  488. nevetError: Guess must be 4 digits (0-9) separated by spaces. Example: safecracker 3 0 3 0
  489. botSafecracker: 2:58 remaining!
  490. dreamrealWait, where'd the safecracker notifications go
  491. dreamrealsafecracker 2 4 5 2
  492. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = < (2:47 to go!)
  493. dreamrealsafecracker 2 8 5 9
  494. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (2:39 to go!)
  495. dreamrealsafecracker 2 7 5 8
  496. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (2:33 to go!)
  497. botSafecracker: 2:28 remaining!
  498. Chronos"safecracker result for someone: = > = > (3:48 to go!)" — for "someone"?
  499. dreamrealsafecracker 2 6 5 7
  500. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = > (2:26 to go!)
  501. dreamrealsafecracker 2 4 5 4
  502. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = = (2:19 to go!)
  503. dreamrealsafecracker 2 3 5 4
  504. nevetsafecracker result for dreamreal: = > = = (2:15 to go!)
  505. dreamrealsafecracker 2 2 5 4
  506. nevetdreamreal has broken the code! Way to go, dreamreal!
  507. dreamrealHrm
  508. dreamrealhangman s
  509. nevetHangman: _ _ _ s _ _ _ _ (4/6 lives, guessed: a, r, s) -- 's' is in the word!
  510. dreamrealhangman n
  511. nevetHangman: _ _ _ s _ _ _ n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, n, r, s) -- 'n' is in the word!
  512. dreamrealhangman e
  513. nevetHangman: _ _ e s _ _ _ n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, n, r, s) -- 'e' is in the word!
  514. Chronoshangman i
  515. nevetHangman: _ _ e s _ i _ n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, r, s) -- 'i' is in the word!
  516. dreamrealhangman o
  517. nevetHangman: _ _ e s _ i o n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, o, r, s) -- 'o' is in the word!
  518. dreamrealhangman u
  519. nevetHangman: _ u e s _ i o n (4/6 lives, guessed: a, e, i, n, o, r, s, u) -- 'u' is in the word!
  520. Chronoshangman question
  521. nevetError: Unknown hangman command. Use 'hangman' to start, 'hangman <letter>' to guess, or 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
  522. dreamrealhangman solve question
  523. nevetYou got it! The word was 'question'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
  524. ChronosAww!
  525. dreamrealSUCK it, chronos!
  526. ChronosRobbed!
  527. dreamrealBut to answer your question, yes, you can run as many things as a provenance will allow
  528. dreamrealso you can't run two hangman games IN A SINGLE CHANNEL
  529. dreamrealbut you could run hangman IN A CHANNEL and in PM
  530. ChronosI had the reverse understanding of < and > in safecracker, but now my brain is fixed.
  531. Chronosdreamreal: Why did nevet refer to me as "someone" instead of "Chronos"?
  532. dreamrealbecause you don't have an identity in the bot
  533. dreamrealhmm, that's a really good point
  534. dreamrealfile an issue, please? Include that exchange (where I'm 'dreamreal' and you're 'someone', if you would)
  535. dreamrealnick derivation is weird because it's actually related to the provenance identity: if you don't have a provenance, you're effectively anonymous to the event system
  536. dreamreal(the job of an ingress provider is literally to format the ingress content for the message system... and assign provenance if possible.)
  537. dreamreal"on IRC, I can match an IRC user to an identity like so... oh, wait, no match? anonymous it is!" ... but it SHOULD be propagating the nick as well
  538. ChronosThank you; issue created — https://github.com/jottinger/streampack/issues/61
  539. nevethangman: referred to me as "someone" rather than "Chronos" · Issue #61 · jottinger/streampack
  540. Chronosoops wait, let me expand the example
  541. dreamrealsafecracker did too
  542. dreamrealthank you
  543. Chronosupdated; that's better
  544. dreamrealyou put it on streampack and not bytecode.news, though, didn't you :D
  545. Chronoswait, now it lost our nickxs
  546. Chronosstupid irccloud copy and paste. fixing
  547. Chronosoops wait no
  548. ChronosSorry. Wife was distracting me on and off. Brain short circuited.
  549. Chronosdreamreal: Wrong place? I can delete and recreate in the right place
  550. dreamrealwives are the WORST!
  551. ChronosHeh!
  552. dreamrealI am working on it, and issues for current nevet go on bytecode.news
  553. dreamrealOkay. let's test something out
  554. dreamreal21
  555. dreamreal!21 matches
  556. dreamreal21 matches
  557. nevetA new game of 21 Matches begins! There are 21 matches on the table. Take 1, 2, or 3 matches each turn. Whoever is forced to take the last match loses. Use '21 take <1-3>' to play.
  558. dreamrealChronos: make a move there please
  559. dreamrealChronos: ! where are you!
  560. dreamrealSomeone make a move here, I need to check something
  561. Chronoshttps://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/125
  562. dreamrealchronos, make a move in 21 please
  563. Chronos21 take 3
  564. nevetHow very predictable. With great confidence, I take 1. There are 17 matches remaining.
  565. Chronos(I am not familiar with this game... leave your opponent with the last match or something?)
  566. dreamrealyeah
  567. Chronos21 take 3
  568. nevetFascinating. Without a hint of doubt, I take 1. There are 13 matches remaining.
  569. Chronos21 take 3
  570. nevetHow very predictable. After pretending to think about it, I take 1. There are 9 matches remaining.
  571. Chronos21 take 3
  572. nevetWe might as well be playing rock, paper, scissors! After weighing my many options, I take 1. There are 5 matches remaining.
  573. Chronos21 take 2
  574. nevetA bold strategy, Cotton! After careful consideration, I take 2. You are left with one match. I claim victory!
  575. ChronosMy instinct is this game is over after the first move :)
  576. dreamrealdang you can't even beat a bot
  577. dreamrealoh, it's over before then :D
  578. ChronosHeh!
  579. dreamrealthere's no way to win; the code doesn't even have player victory text :D
  580. ChronosOh, because the player doesn't get to choose who goes first, got it, heh
  581. dreamrealso 21 matches is pretty much the first thing I write after hello world in ANY language
  582. dreamrealthe strategy is ALWAYS the same: collect player move, validate, play 4-playermove until there's 1 match left
  583. dreamrealbut gives me input mechanics, output mechanics, loops, terminal conditions, etc
  584. dreamrealhangman
  585. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
  586. dreamrealChronos: take a guess, please
  587. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New issue #125: On IRC, the Hangman game referred to me as "someone" rather than my IRC nick "Chronos" - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/issues/125
  588. bot[jottinger/bytecode.news] New PR #126: Fixing anonymous user name references for IRC - https://github.com/jottinger/bytecode.news/pull/126
  589. dreamrealgrrrr
  590. dreamrealchronos, I HAVE an id in the bot!
  591. dreamrealjreicher: yo!
  592. Chronoshangman e
  593. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ e _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: e) -- 'e' is in the word!
  594. Chronoshangman a
  595. nevetHangman: a _ _ _ e _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives, guessed: a, e) -- 'a' is in the word!
  596. Chronoshangman s
  597. nevetHangman: a _ _ _ e _ _ s _ (6/6 lives, guessed: a, e, s) -- 's' is in the word!
  598. Chronoshangman d
  599. nevetHangman: a _ _ _ e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, d, e, s) -- No 'd'. 5 lives left.
  600. Chronoshangman c
  601. nevetHangman: a _ c _ e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, s) -- 'c' is in the word!
  602. Chronoshangman l
  603. nevetHangman: a l c _ e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, l, s) -- 'l' is in the word!
  604. Chronoshangman h
  605. nevetHangman: a l c h e _ _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, h, l, s) -- 'h' is in the word!
  606. Chronoshangman m
  607. nevetHangman: a l c h e m _ s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, h, l, m, s) -- 'm' is in the word!
  608. Chronoshangman i
  609. nevetHangman: a l c h e m i s _ (5/6 lives, guessed: a, c, d, e, h, i, l, m, s) -- 'i' is in the word!
  610. Chronoshangman t
  611. nevetChronos got it! The word was 'alchemist'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
  612. dreamrealexcellent!
  613. dreamrealsafecracker
  614. nevetsafecracker pattern: . . . . Good luck, players! (5:00 to go!)
  615. ChronosOnly ONE wrong guess. I'm THE MAN.
  616. dreamrealyes, you're the man
  617. Chronoshaha
  618. dreamrealnow try safecracker
  619. Chronossafecracker 5555
  620. nevetError: Guess must be 4 digits (0-9) separated by spaces. Example: safecracker 3 0 3 0
  621. Chronossafecracker 5 5 5 5
  622. nevetsafecracker result for Chronos: > < > > (4:32 to go!)
  623. botSafecracker: 4:29 remaining!
  624. dreamrealthere we go!
  625. dreamrealhangman
  626. nevetHangman: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (6/6 lives) -- Use 'hangman <letter>' to guess, 'hangman solve <word>' to solve.
  627. Chronossafecracker 3 7 3 3
  628. nevetsafecracker result for Chronos: < = < > (4:10 to go!)
  629. dreamrealhangman solve gauntlet
  630. nevetZero letters guessed and you nailed it? That's either genius or espionage. The word was 'gauntlet'. Use 'hangman' to play again.
  631. botSafecracker: 3:59 remaining!
  632. Chronossafecracker 4 7 4 2
  633. nevetsafecracker result for Chronos: = = = > (3:45 to go!)
  634. * dreamreal preens a little
  635. Chronossafecracker 4 7 4 1
  636. nevetChronos has broken the code! Way to go, Chronos!
  637. Chronosdreamreal: haha :)
  638. dreamrealyou got one wrong letter... I got no wrong letters at all. And didn't even need one GUESS.
  639. ChronosMmmhmmm. ;)
  640. ChronosElf needs food, badly.
  641. * dreamreal whistles innocently.
  642. dreamrealthanks, bug fixed I think
  643. Chronos(Speaking of Gauntlet)
  644. ChronosNick stuff looks good. Thanks!
  645. bluedreamreal: I took the freedom to use nevet's config in that primate issue
  646. bluemostly because... that's where I came across the need for the feature
  647. blueI will probably only need BACKEND_NEVET in the primate code; but I might need other stuff like jwt, too
  648. dreamrealyeah?
  649. blueyes, so your comments are highly welcome
  650. dreamrealhah, that's awesome
  651. dreamrealand commented
  652. bluethank you!
  653. dreamrealhopefully it's useful
  654. dreamrealtoday
  655. nevetToday is Friday, February 27, 2026
  656. dreamrealtoday hebrew
  657. nevetToday is Friday, 10 Adar, 5786 (Hebrew)
  658. bluedreamreal: yeah, the last open question is mostly for people who might not be comfortable with automatic env loading
  659. blueyou MIGHT have an .env file which you can use for.. I dunno, a PRESTEP or something.
  660. blueI can't think of a good reason for it, but also magic is often something people would at least like an escape hatch from
  661. jreicherOh gosh I should have said anything about the trunk name. I'm sorry. Just call it "trunk". Or "dumbo".
  662. jreicher^should^shouldn't
  663. jreicherI was just teasing because I didn't think anyone really cared.
  664. jreicherblue: at the risk of restarting an unproductive conversation, I do have a bit of an issue with this: "so you don't care when others make choices for you". That's vague bait. Both "yes" and "no" invalid answers. Other people make choices for us all the time. Sometimes long-dead people. The design of power sockets in every country is an example that comes to mind. It's not reasonable to care about that choice. Or at least not every
  665. jreicherelement of it. But some choices, of course we should care about.
  666. blueYou don't need to be sorry jreicher, I don't think anyone's hurt
  667. jreicherWell, it's more about the time spent... :)
  668. blueand also, to your point, yes, that's true. my parents made a lot of choices for me. the point was more like, things you can influence. I get dreamreal's position; he just doesn't care either way, so whatever's the current default works for him. He also didn't care when it was 'master'. For me though, it's different: because in the very least, this is unneeded friction that anyone with half a spine should have
  669. blueobjected to
  670. blueYou can of course don the Zarathustra position that you live on your mountain and nothing really touches you, but in the end everything touches you, that's why I quoted Obama on that. indecision is also a decision, just masked as none
  671. blueif you don't go vote in elections... you're voting for the winner. not caring is not not taking a stance; it's just taking a stance that aligns with the winning stance
  672. jreicherWhen working in a team I would be sensitive to the possibility that somebody else might be offended about the user of "master", and for that particular project such a person's feelings would give me a reason to change the trunk name even if I continued to be ambivalent about the default. I suspect dreamreal might be the same.
  673. dreamrealyet you can draw up a fight on every last fucking thing in the world that you encounter and MIGHT disagree on, and you have that right, but it's EXHAUSTING and pointless. Fight on the things that matter. This one matters to you? Great! have at it! Every windmill deserves a tilt! ... but not everyone else sees the same dragon or cares, and sometimes that's how it be.
  674. Chronosblue: What extra friction does main cause? (honestly curious)
  675. bluewhy should you be sensitive though? the word master is ubiquitous in the English language; and at any rate, it does not refer to people here. So whoever is being offended is not doing it in good faith, and should just completely ignored
  676. blueand any rate, offence is given, not taken
  677. dreamrealyet that's a battle that's already been fought in shadowy halls where we do not care who treads
  678. jreicherAnd take this in an even more cynical direction, I sometimes wonder whether arguing about this in the absence of a real person having real feelings is just performative. I would want to make sure people who argue so vehemently in the absence of hurt feelings are just as principled when there are real feelings at stake.
  679. bluedreamreal: I get it that to YOU it's pointless. I conceded as much. To me it's not pointless though
  680. dreamrealmaster vs main: I am not offended by either, even though I find slavery as a concept a horror tantamount to rape
  681. dreamrealyes, and I accept that it's not pointless to you
  682. bluedreamreal: that's not the point though, is it? the word 'master' has many uses; master key is hardly related to slavery. monkeypatching the slavery meaning onto a technical tool is dishonest at best, and downright evil otherwise
  683. dreamrealjreicher: honestly, I think the whole master/slave thing was people desperate for a win in any forum in which they could get it, and in any ral forum they're utterly ignored
  684. dreamrealany real forum, though
  685. dreamrealthese people are not and were not winners
  686. bluejreicher: this is not cynical at all. Not one living being is actually offended by the use of the term 'master' to name a technical aspect of a tool. Anyone who contends otherwise should be classified as certifiable
  687. dreamreal"Let me show you how much I care by caring BALLS TO THE WALL about stuff that was actually irrelevant"
  688. ChronosMy wife and I bought a new house last year; while searching, we noticed that "master bedroom" had a new name, "owner suite." Our realtor told us the change was because "master" was offensive... but that it turned out "owner" is also offensive, so now it's changing to "primary bedroom."
  689. dreamrealhahahahahahaha
  690. dreamrealof course, realtors are also the idiots of the white collar world
  691. dreamrealif there are any realtors here, I'm sorry, I insulted you directly and you were to D U M B to notice
  692. bluethe reason I don't flow with the "why do you care" argument is that it's a known woke tactic; under the guise of it, substantive changes are made to the language and thus to reality
  693. Chronosblue: The crazy woke people ended up getting spanked very hard for their crazy wokeness, in the 2024 U.S. elections.
  694. bluethe more interesting question to me is "why don't you care?"
  695. dreamrealwell.. in reality, reality don't change
  696. ChronosI keep telling people that Republicans didn't win in 2024; rather, Democrats lost, for getting so deep into Crazyville.
  697. bluedreamreal: I have long believed that. but actually one thing leftists get right is that language does affect our thinking. it doesn't change reality per se, but it does strongly affect our perception of it, which matters greatly
  698. dreamrealand the democrats are getting worse. I hate that, really: I despise the Democrats but we need a viable opposition party
  699. dreamrealI just don't know what you'd call it such that it attracted the sane democrats
  700. dreamrealthey just threw away this election cycle and the next, assuming the republicans have the brains god gave retarded gnats
  701. ChronosI think it's okay — *good*, even — to be woke. But not crazy woke.
  702. dreamrealman, that term is so overloaded
  703. Chronosdreamreal: Are the Democrats getting worse? Or have they improved some, since Trump was elected?
  704. dreamrealin most senses preceding the last ten years, I'm very woke
  705. dreamrealChronos: did you see the SOTU?
  706. dreamrealthey basically pissed away every american patriot
  707. Chronosdreamreal: I did not. My assumption is that it would be mostly Trump boasting, and I've already heard a few lifetimes worth of his boasting.
  708. dreamrealevery democrat who went "man, I don't like the GOP, but at least I love my country" got spat on
  709. jreicherblue: what's the "missing workflow" you were talking about? issues=branches, you said
  710. Chronosdreamreal: What did they (the democrats) do (or not do)?
  711. dreamrealhe trolled them and they fell for it hook, line, sinker, rudder, propeller, keel, ballast, anchor, mast, sail, and dock
  712. bluejreicher: I was mostly referring to the fact I'd like to see an issue-based workflow, and not artifically separate PRs and issues
  713. dreamreal"stand up if you represent american citizens first" -- nope. "stand up and honor the mother of this murdered ukrainian girl" -- nope. "Let's clap for the hockey team!" -- nope.
  714. dreamrealjust oevr and over and over again.
  715. dreamrealSimple shibboleths... and they blew every one of them they could.
  716. dreamrealwere they shibboleths? Of course they were. But shibboleths are easy: all you have to do is perform them!
  717. blueit's funny how they can't just come out in favour of no men in women's sports. this is 101 sanity
  718. Chronosdreamreal: Trump literally said "stand up if you represent american citizens first" and republicans stood up while no democrats did..?
  719. dreamreal"Use a sibilant S, or you're an alien!" "sssss." "Okay, you're one of us."
  720. bluethey're too afraid of their own woke minibase, dreamreal :P
  721. dreamrealChronos: yes
  722. dreamrealI don't know about NO democrats - I think a few did
  723. dreamrealfetterman, at least one other
  724. bluefetterman's not here
  725. bluehe's in andromeda
  726. bluethat doesn't count, regrettably
  727. Chronosdreamreal: I assume it's because Democrats don't believe Americans should come before immigrants, or something to that effect?
  728. bluethe joke still holds though that the only democrat with a brains is... brain-damaged
  729. dreamrealChronos: *illegal* immigrants. "Do you represent illegals first, or american citizens?"
  730. dreamrealThat's the formation.
  731. bluewait, they didn't stand up for that?
  732. blueWHY?
  733. bluethat's like the total baseline
  734. jreicherSorry, I'm a bit distracted. My partner is a little devastated her hamentaschen experienced side fall in the oven.
  735. dreamrealTo congress. People whose oath of office is TO THE CONSTITUTION.
  736. dreamrealI need to get some of those
  737. bluejreicher: oh wow, damn it!
  738. dreamrealthe local stores have crap like prunes
  739. Chronosdreamreal: I guess I respect them for sticking by their morals (misguided as they may be).
  740. dreamrealI guess I'm lucky that they HAVE hamantaschen
  741. dreamrealChronos: their morals shoudl be to defend the constitution
  742. ChronosRegarding clapping for the hockey team; bringing that up just seems... juvenile? I care about the hockey team at least as much as they care about *me*.
  743. bluedreamreal: you know how they're call in eretz hakodesh?
  744. dreamrealif their morals say "every human is equal before the constitution" then their morals are wrong
  745. bluecalled*
  746. dreamrealblue: oh no
  747. dreamrealwhat
  748. bluehaman's ears
  749. dreamrealChronos: it's just tribal signalling but the tribe here is AMERICA
  750. bluedreamreal: welp, the constitution is for americans, not for illegals
  751. dreamrealand as jingoistic as that sounds, jingoism in SPORTS is a different thing than jingoism in politics
  752. dreamrealblue: our constitution addresses all humans
  753. Chronosdreamreal: Even if they believe what they're peddling — and I think they do — it seems painfully obvious to me their tactics are piss poor.
  754. dreamrealbut citizens have representation aliens do not
  755. bluedreamreal: is it though? I sincerely doubt that -- even if that's the interpretation of SCOTUS
  756. Chronosdreamreal: Yeah, I just don't give a shit about the U.S. men's hockey team. Sorry. <shrug>
  757. ChronosNot one little tiny shit.
  758. ChronosBut then, I never got the whole sports thing.
  759. dreamrealblue: no, there's a difference in how the constitution refers to people vs citizens
  760. dreamrealChronos: well, it comes down to "our side" vs "their side"
  761. ChronosPeople going absolutely bananas over "their team," when it's not even really "their team," just a bunch of strangers from far away who literally don't give a damn about them.
  762. bluedreamreal: yes I get that, but it's not a meaningful difference. the constitution applies on american soil or to american citizens, which is it then?
  763. dreamrealin sports, it's fully okay to go "hey, we won, they did not" even if the sport is irrelevant
  764. dreamrealblue: yes
  765. dreamrealit applies to both
  766. Chronosdreamreal: Except "we" did not, in fact, win...
  767. dreamrealan american citizen is defended by the constitution, no matter where they are
  768. dreamrealChronos: hey, we certainly did if we're 'merican!
  769. dreamrealOur team winned! Theirs didn't!
  770. bluedreamreal: q, an american abroad is protected by the 1st amendment, yes no?
  771. dreamrealWe, as citizens, contribute and participate in our olympic representation
  772. dreamrealblue: for american purposes
  773. ChronosEven "my" *local* professional sports teams are, well, not made up of primarily *local* people. The whole sports obsession thing seems utterly bizarre to me.
  774. bluedreamreal: where does it say that in the constitution?
  775. dreamrealif I go to thailand and run down the king, i do not have that protection there
  776. ChronosI'm proud of the U.S. women's hockey team, though, for not accepting Trump's invitation, after he treated them badly.
  777. dreamrealblue: That's a good question
  778. dreamrealChronos: how did he treat them badly?
  779. dreamrealWhat did he do?
  780. bluethe constitution can't possibly apply outside of american soil. that would imply it has global jurisdiction
  781. dreamrealChronos: he... invited them to the white house, just like the men's team
  782. blueso the q becomes, if an american citizens is in canada and criticises the govt, can he prosecuted upon returning to us soil?
  783. Chronosdreamreal: He said something less than kind while on the phone with the U.S. men's hockey team. Something about "he'll HAVE to invite the women too." It was just the kind of immature and juvenile "joke" I'd expect from him.
  784. dreamrealChronos: oh my god
  785. dreamrealI listened to that phone call
  786. dreamrealI understand the sentiment but that was NOT what that call was saying
  787. dreamrealAT ALL
  788. ChronosHey, stop hacking the POTUS's phone!
  789. dreamrealIT WAS ON TV
  790. Chronos(JOKE)
  791. blueiow, the constitution applies only to americans, so americans are protected from 1st amendment violations anywhere they are, as pertains to the american govt
  792. dreamreal"Imagine the outrage if I don't invite the women's team too" -- cue outrage that he said there'd be outrage if he didn't invite the women's team
  793. blueby extension, foreigners are not protected by that
  794. dreamrealChronos: people are DESPERATE to hate Trump for everything, which is amusing because there's plenty to despise him for
  795. Chronosdreamreal: Why would he say that?
  796. dreamrealChronos: it's true!
  797. dreamrealThat's why!
  798. dreamrealI mean, is it Trump? Sure. But the interpretation being applied is ENTIRELY partisan
  799. Chronosdreamreal: An adult avoids saying lots of things that are true, because saying them is foolish!
  800. dreamrealI listened to it. It was not putting down the women's team at all. And the men? They were laughing at it, going "two for two!" -- CELEBRATING the womens' win as well
  801. ChronosWhy bring it up *at all*?
  802. ChronosWhat's wrong with him that he mentioned it *at all*?
  803. dreamrealBecause it's trump, of course. I thought it was unnecessary - but it's not like some horrible offense like it's being made out to be
  804. bluedoes anyone even watch women's hockey. I didn't even know it existed until now
  805. ChronosCould *anything* good come from saying it?!
  806. ChronosThe man needs to STFU *way* more.
  807. dreamrealChronos: sure
  808. dreamrealChronos: he was doing trump things. Mein Gott, think game theory
  809. dreamrealHe's a MASTER of simple trolling
  810. blueas long as he ends up bombing iran back to the middle ages...
  811. bluehe can say whatever he wants
  812. dreamrealhe's a dullard and a fool and an awful person, okay? But he leverages that and gets people to respond EXACTLY how he wants them
  813. Chronosdreamreal: Well, it appears to have had some effect — the women's team turned down his invitation — do you consider this a positive outcome for Trump, or the Republicans, or men, or women?
  814. dreamrealhe was laying track for the SOTU for EVERYONE to see. There's no way a moderately stupid Dem wasn't going "oh no, he's going to make this a patriotic thing, because it IS patriotic, and we're gonna have to agree that America won and celebrate it or else we're going to look like TRAITORS. Oh, well. let's look like traitors!"
  815. ChronosI can understanding trolling when it benefits you or your team. I'm just not seeing the benefit to him or his team.
  816. Chronoss/understanding/understand/
  817. dreamrealAre you kididng me?
  818. dreamrealDUDE
  819. dreamrealhe just nuked the democrats MULTIPLE TIMES in the SOTU
  820. Chronosdreamreal: Somehow, I don't think he was being that clever, and thinking that far ahead. I think you're giving credit where it's not due — but I suppose it's possible.
  821. dreamrealI mean, I felt HORRIBLE for them
  822. dreamrealfor THEM
  823. dreamrealcan you imagine getting lapped by THAT moron over and over and over again?
  824. dreamrealChronos: he does this same thing ALL THE TIME
  825. dreamreal"He's only done this one trick 40X in a row, accidentally every time I'm sure"
  826. ChronosOh, I don't think modern Democrats have a clever bone in their bodies. They have NO idea how to win a war.
  827. dreamrealhe wrote abotu it IN HIS FREAKING BOOK
  828. dreamrealwhich was ghostwritten, mind, but even so
  829. ChronosDemocrats will try to win [unwinnable] battles because it's the moral thing to do, knowing fully well the whole time it'll lose them the entire war.
  830. ChronosOr maybe they don't know.
  831. Chronos(Moral thing to do — according to them.)
  832. dreamrealHow is that a moral thing, to say "screw you" to a mother who lost her child?
  833. dreamrealHow is it moral to go "oh look, a kid disabled thanks to a truck, screw that kid"
  834. dreamrealhow is it MORAL to say "our constituents can pound sand, we want illegal aliens here"
  835. Chronosdreamreal: Morals being subjective; it was the moral thing to do in their minds (I guess?).
  836. dreamrealI mean, that may be their actual mores
  837. dreamrealin which case I say they need to GTFO
  838. dreamrealand trump gave them a chance to display those mores in full view of everyone
  839. dreamrealand they took that chance
  840. dreamrealThey'd rather despise trump and make sure everyone KNEW they despise trump, Trump hatred is more important than anything else
  841. dreamrealand if that's your guiding principle, well, okay, cool. You suck. GTFO.
  842. ChronosDon't look at me; I dislike both parties
  843. * Chronos <- moderate
  844. dreamrealI *do not like Trump*. I would not leave him alone in a room with my wife. i respect the office he inhabits, I suppose... and that's as far as it goes.
  845. dreamrealI'm not moderate, I'm a liberal, screw you
  846. bluewhat makes you a liberal
  847. dreamrealI'm just a liberal in the old sense, not the new "omg puppies and rainbows and mushrooms and WE HATE EVERYTHING"
  848. dreamrealI'm a liberal in the rationalist, flat-sense-of-worth humanism pattern
  849. blueI don't know what it means
  850. dreamrealI'm a classic liberal because I suspect power, focus on dignity, refuse to coerce, and demand fairness. I'm not a liberal in the modern tribal sense.
  851. bluebut like, you still have a position on say, abortion, no?
  852. blueis it closer to the D or R party
  853. dreamrealI have a position on most things! And I'm very axiom-driven.
  854. blueI didn't know classic liberal suspected power, I thought classic liberal would be like an assertion of god-given rights or whatever the christians call it
  855. bluelife, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc.
  856. blueI guess that's the same as what you said?
  857. dreamrealsure.
  858. dreamreali neither demand nor expect satisfaction along those lines from others. Those things are not theirs to dispense or control. Classic liberal.
  859. ChronosWhat I like about Republicans is that they're super transparently evil. Benefit rich people? Fuck everyone else? Yep, yep, I like that I understand them to some degree, it means I can better predict their behavior and act accordingly.
  860. blueyeah that's me too. though I don't like the label liberal. there's nothing liberal about it, I'm not 'open to new ideas'
  861. blueI'm still mostly conservative in the sense of conserving things that have proved useful for uh, nearly forever
  862. ChronosWhat I *dis*like about Democrats is they *really believe* their twisted morality is good and right; they've become deeply religious, which always make me super nervous.
  863. dreamrealSee, I'd see both parties as transparently evil at the edges, but the democrats are transparently corrosive as well. Republicans win that one.
  864. blueat least you *have* two parties, dreamreal!
  865. bluehere we have a uniparty, and that's it
  866. ChronosAt least with Republicans, if I need to, I can pretend to be a Christian, and even start going to some Church, and make all the right noises, and appear to fit in, and not get labeled "domestic terrorist."
  867. dreamrealIt's funny, I see a lot more outsiders in the republican party than I do the democratic party
  868. dreamrealthe democrats emphasize the ol' rainbow but when you look under the curtains, everyone has to think the same or else
  869. ChronosWith Democrats, I have to support some of their insane agendas that hurt me, my family, and me neighbors, like, "Borders are racist."
  870. bluealso, elon was not wrong with the idea of the American party. only it's probably never going to happen
  871. Chronosblue: Are you a German citizen?
  872. blueya, Chronos
  873. bluesince... lemma look, 2019
  874. Chronosblue: Where are you originally from? If you don't mind saying.
  875. blueChronos: Israel
  876. Chronosblue: Why did you decide to move to Germany and become a German citizen?
  877. blueChronos: because Israel is the next best thing to hell on earth
  878. ChronosOh! Wow. I had no idea. I thought Israel was very nice, modern, etc.
  879. blueit's probably the only palce in the world that it's 100% good that it exists, and yet it manages to get out the worst in mankind, mostly not through any fault of its own
  880. dreamrealit can be
  881. ChronosHuh. Interesting.
  882. blueIsrael was envisioned almost entirely differently than how it was supposed to be. The Holocaust and WWII made it an impossible place, because the human capital that was supposed to drive it got almost completely lost
  883. bluethan how it came to be*
  884. dreamrealit's actually a marvel that it exists at all
  885. dreamrealwe Jews RAWWWWWWK
  886. blueya
  887. ChronosWell, it kind of looks like China will become the next superpower, as the U.S. continues its downhill slide.
  888. ChronosTime to cozy up to them!
  889. dreamrealDepends on the democrats, if they can regain power
  890. dreamrealif they can't, the US may be okay
  891. blueso imagine you wanna start a company, you have a bunch of REALLY talented engineers, like I mean supertalent, that for some odd unfathomable reason, no one wants to employ. and then almost just before you get to start working, like 90% of them vanish. and instead, you need to hire 90% completely unqualified idiots who have never done any proper work, in anything
  892. blueso now those idiots start working for you, but they resent you like hell, hate you, and are sure you're the bane of their existence, even though you saved their sorry butts from riding camels all day long to fetch water
  893. ChronosYou guys must hate Greta ;)
  894. dreamrealI don't hate anyone that I know of
  895. dreamrealI think she's going to have a hard time in any real world
  896. dreamrealshe's been kind of abused by her caretakers
  897. blueanyway, basically that's the story of Israel, as said, impossible
  898. dreamrealher role in society is basically a yapping dog, too small to actually do anything beyond the yapping, until you get close enough that its needle teeth can bite you
  899. blueand also the occassional "jews bad", because why not, why not just focus on climate issues
  900. dreamrealshe's going to die unhappy and unloved unless she somehow figures it out for herself, which I doubt she'll do as long as she's enabled as a figurehead
  901. dreamrealbut I don't HATE her
  902. blueya, I don't hate anyone
  903. bluethere are exceptions, but they're personal, not political
  904. blueand they definitely don't apply to anyone I've never met
  905. bluegreta is mostly in the pity box for me. she was obviously groomed by her parents to be this political puppet with no brains
  906. dreamrealYeah, there're a few I suppose
  907. dreamrealbut I don't know if I've met anyone I'd hate either, buber makes that hard
  908. blueif she were born just 40 years earlier, she'd probably be with a child in a kibbutz :P
  909. dreamrealit's part of why we should reach out to as many people as we can: we should collect personal impressions of everyone around us as much as we're able to tolerate
  910. bluedreamreal: one of the best mapping of a reality is 'a man is a product of his time'. that of course doesn't excuse evil, but it serves to illustrate a lot of behaviour
  911. blueI am, too, a product of my time, and so are you
  912. Chronosdreamreal: What do you think the most concerning things is about Democrats? In terms of which of their polices would be the most harmful to the U.S.
  913. ChronosIf you don't mind saying.
  914. dreamrealChronos: the endless refusal to accept redemption.
  915. jreicherblue: (I'm slowly catching up.) You mean that there should be a correspondence between branches and issues, rather than between branches and "code changes" (whatever that might mean, the ambiguity of which is perhaps what youa re reacting to)
  916. jreicher?
  917. Chronosdreamreal: Can you elaborate on that?
  918. bluejreicher: ya. for me issues should represent a complete item of work that, when done, can be fast-forwarded as is to master
  919. jreicherErr. FF? (Not the main topic here, but why would FF apply?)
  920. bluebecause then maintainers can merge to master directly
  921. dreamrealChronos: the democrats damn - and damnation is permanent. There is no recovery. You said a thing that we interpret TODAY as racist, therefore you are a racist, you are contemptible, you owe endless restitution and can never be redeemed, only a symbol of endless remuneration.
  922. blueiow, it's the issue owner's job to make sure maintainers don't need to rebase. this is more or less how the linux kernel dev works, btw
  923. jreicherblue: you mean without having to resolve conflicts? So you're saying PR submitter should stay ahead of master?
  924. bluejreicher: yes. once you indicate to the maintainer that work is done, it should in at the tip of master, i.e. rebased, by you
  925. jreicherI wouldn't use rebase. There are other ways of staying ahead of master. But I understand what you mean.
  926. blueif there are conflicts, it's your code to resolve them, as the code owner / issue owner
  927. blueit's your job*
  928. jreicherYep, that's what I thought you meant. You want to save maintainers resolving conflicts with code they are less familiar with than the author.
  929. bluemaintainer can focus on pure review
  930. blueyes
  931. dreamrealChronos: it doesn't matter than you said it 40 years ago, or that everyone around you said the same thing, YOU are racist because it is useful for them for you to be racist and you cannot EVER recover from that. Ever. But you better start paying into the coffers for it. Or else.
  932. blue^
  933. jreicherOK, so back to the "issue per branch" idea. Are you familiar with the notion of an agile "epic" or "feature"?
  934. dreamrealChronos: and it's not me saying that because it's happened TO ME - this is the pattern you see in the dominant aspects of the Democratic party. There's your corrosive element... and add to it postmodernism, and what you get is active, corrosive EVIL, and I can't.
  935. bluejreicher: yes, I am. those can be modelled as issues that never use their branches, or as something else
  936. bluein the linux kernel's dev model though, you'd have hierachies
  937. bluean epic 'maintainer' would pull from his issues, and signal to the master maintainer to pull
  938. jreicherblue: OK, so if something is "too big" for one branch, you don't have a problem with it being done across multiple branches that contribute smaller changes to build to the final solution?
  939. bluejreicher: yes, that's no problem. hierarchical issues are fully. not all issue branches must flow directly back onto master
  940. bluefully ok*
  941. jreicherOh but you would still have a branch for each issue.
  942. blueit's fully ok to create subissues, and have all the subissues flow back to the 'epic'/'feature' issue
  943. blueit's really almost entirely the same as the linux kernel dev system, I'd say
  944. jreicherOK, so looks like there are two different things here. One is the maintainer's view, and the other is the contributor's view. You would want the maintainer to see only one branch, corresponding to the "epic", no matter how large it is, and ahead of master so that there are no conflicts. Right? So nothing partial, and nothing conflicting.
  945. blueyes, pretty much
  946. Chronosdreamreal: Thanks for that explanation. I can't disagree.
  947. bluejreicher: but there could be several epic/feature branches
  948. blueall ready at different times
  949. blueand their maintainers could be different people
  950. dreamrealWell, you should, because my verbiage here is pretty acidic - a register I don't prefer - but I'm annoyed, so that comes through. Sorry about that.The Buber reference was intentional and sincere and entirely relevant.
  951. jreicherIt's an interesting idea. I have some sympathy for taking the maintainer's POV like that. But I think contributors should be able to do whatever they like. Branch without issues. Issues without branches. etc.
  952. dreamrealif I could meet greta I would.
  953. jreicherBut maybe the keep all that in their own fork
  954. bluejreicher: yes, I understand it. but I also find it highly chaotic. in your typical github repo, you have many issues; and many people randomly sending in PRs. a lot of this work might not be relevant at the time of creation, or end up being wasted, or repeated. issues focus work: especially if they can be first 'accepted' by maintainers, before work is started on them
  955. blueyou can still do your own work in your own repo, if you so wish. but you just can't randomly PR it without having it on an issue branch first
  956. jreicherWhich again is the maintainer's POV. And that's fine.
  957. jreicher(IMO)
  958. jreicherIt's a bit like saying you can write an email in whatever language you choose. It has to be one the recipient can read.
  959. jreicher^can^can't
  960. jreicherdammit
  961. blueyes
  962. bluein the end, it's about expectation management
  963. blueI personally onyl want to start working on an issue that has been accepted, and where no one else is working on it
  964. blueif the issue's not been accepted, or someone else is working on it.. well, I might be wasting my time
  965. blueusing issues as an expectation system mean the maintainer can't really 'complain' later about the method, only about the code
  966. jreicherMind you, if people want to work in chaotic ways, and you are witness to it but are otherwise unaffected, I often think the best reaction a deep breath, perhaps a little cry, and then leave them to it. You probably have better things to do.
  967. bluemeans*
  968. blueyes, but also, this creates unnecessary friction. I have a long-standing open PR in my project where someone used AI to generate docs. I don't really want to reject it outright at the moment, because it's a user, but I also am probably not going to merge it. and it is my fault for not having set up the expectation framework properly
  969. bluethis situation would be impossible in the issue-based system I just theorised
  970. blueI want to encourage contribution: but at least on my own terms, in some basic acceptance-framework-based way
  971. jreicherOh I see your concern now. You (also) want to smooth over the relationship between maintainers and contributors.
  972. blueI have no real problem btw even with the fact it was AI-generated. but the PR is so random that it satisfies almost none of what *I* envisioned for this docs section
  973. blueit's *less* work for me to fully reject than work through the problems with the contributor
  974. jreicherThis is reminding me of the experience people have submitting to Emacs. They don't always like what the maintainers say.
  975. blueand again, this is my fault for not having communicated intent properly
  976. blue*I* should have defined acceptance criteria for this, and I haven't, and since the since is open, the guy jsut went ahead and sent a PR
  977. bluesince the system*
  978. blueI just want to make it clear I don't blame him, it's my fault here, and the fact I can't really set it up technically the way I want to, on github
  979. jreicherHave you asked him what he wants to do in this situation?
  980. jreicherHe might be prepared to modify the PR with your feedback
  981. blueI haven't, mostly because this needs a full rewrite, and the code the docs are based is moving too fast right now
  982. blueit's just not ready yet for docs
  983. bluewhich is one of the reasons I haven't documented it myself, yet
  984. blueif this was strictly issue-based, the guy could have opened an issue: but not done any work on it until it was accepted
  985. bluebased on*
  986. bluesince it's my project, there are many 'implicit' things I haven't done: I know I need to do it, but I'm also not opening an issue for every little thing, because I don't want to use the issue tracker as a reminder system
  987. bluethings that are still in that cosy place of, needs to be done, but too far away that I don't even want to open an issue about it, just stay in brain or local text file. they're so far away I can't even commit to a shape
  988. blueheck, I don't even know if it's one or many shapes, that's how far it is
  989. blueI can barely discern it in the distance myself
  990. blueI don't want the issue tracker to become a graveyard of "this is something I wanna do at some point in the next decade"
  991. bluebecause I could fill it to the brim with THAT kind of quality
  992. jreicherIt might be worth talking to them anyway. It's not about what might happen next, but about your concerns for their expectations and understanding of what they can do.
  993. jreicherAnd gives you "practice" at the relationship (since you seem to be interested in this)
  994. blueyeah, I might do that
  995. blueanother thing, jreicher, that I'm missing in gh are proper broads. they have like a 'projects' feature that yet a third look into what the project is doing. I'd very much prefer a broad kanban view of the issues that tells me, ok, those are the long-term things dreamreal is working on for nevet, and this is where the project is heading. instead there's this weird 'projects' feature that is totally parve
  996. blueproper boards*
  997. jreicherThat's an interesting idea. I wonder if any forges have that.
  998. bluethere used to be a website that did it super nicely, it was called pivotaltracker. not far from today's trello, but much better organised. let me see if I can find a screenshot of how it looked like
  999. * jreicher prepares himself for the first sight of Netscape he's seen in years
  1000. blueit's not that old, just like 5 years in the past or so
  1001. jreicherI was joking. :p
  1002. bluehttps://startupstash.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/pivotaltracker_platform_1.png
  1003. jreicherNice
  1004. blueI *really* liked how condensed it was, and you have a nice overview of where a project was at
  1005. jreicherSerentiy EHS? That the one?
  1006. blueI think that's the name of the project shown. the thing itself was called pivotaltracker
  1007. blueI think it got sold off or something
  1008. jreicherTrying to find what it is now. Not easy.
  1009. blueI get this: https://www.planview.com/products-solutions/products/hub/integrations/pivotaltracker/
  1010. nevetPivotalTracker - Planview
  1011. blueI think they bought it, and it's something else now
  1012. blueor maybe that's just an intergration for it
  1013. blueI have no idea; I don't think the tool is available anymore, unfortunately
  1014. bluehttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41591622
  1015. nevetPivotal Tracker will shut down | Hacker News
  1016. blueapparently EOL'd in Sept 2024
  1017. * blue says kaddish
  1018. jreicherChronos: I don't think it's a given that China will become the next superpower. I suspect the governance structure they have is not sustainable. Too much depends on the personal competence of Xi Jinping, and nobody lives forever. One of democracy's biggest strengths is that the system is "designed" to survive changes in people, constantly trying to cultivate competent replacements.
  1019. jreicherdreamreal: what you call "damnation" would be called "cancel culture" over here.