Community
Chat Logs
Saturday, October 17, 2026 (America/New_York)
- phalethonly 20 seconds to build primate website, used to be about 45-50 seconds
- phalethflog really needs trust me bro script and windows builds
- bluehi phaleth
- blueyes, the primate website now doesn't need to build packages anymore, runs TS from source
- bluebtw phaleth, this is something that flog/dog are gonna solve generally for TS. no build step
- phalethhi blue
- bluehi
- phalethyou mean there is no call to flog build?
- blueexactly. no packages are being compiled to JS
- bluethe 20s are, according to my analysis, 14s docker nonsense, 6s primate build
- bluedocker stuff can be cached. the real redeploy time of primate website is 6s
- bluethere's also flog install involved, but that is really, really fast. faster than pnpm currently
- phalethbut in the Containerfile there is RUN flog run --workspace apps/website build
- blueyes. flog run jst runs scripts
- bluein that case, the script is `primate build`
- phalethah, so before the call was: RUN flog build --workspace apps/website
- blueyes. `flog build` builds TS -> JS, recursively
- bluewith dog around, `flog build` should be kinda obsolete I hope
- bluebtw dog's motto: One paw at a time. I came up with it and clanker approved
- phalethnah
- bluedreamreal found it hilarious for some reason
- phalethI just hope clanker is done with flog except for the issues I've mentioned
- blueflog is only getting started. https://repopack.com/project/flog/tasks/73
- bluewe're getting `flog format` and `flog lint`. but for that we need dog, so it'll arrive later, probably in 2027
- blueflog -> everything related to monorepo maintainance, dog -> just running stuff
- bluethe split bun never had, but should have had
- bluemaintenance*
- phalethbut for just running stuff it can use node
- blueyes but node is slow and stupid
- phalethor the go backed in runtime
- bluewell goja doesn't have jit, dog has jit (already)
- phalethnode runs on v8
- blueya, dog is gonna be faster than v8
- phalethomg :D
- phalethI thought flog is gonna be generally useful for people who can't be bothered with pnpm, but cannot fully migrate
- blueyes, well it's gonna replace npm/pnpm/yarn/nub/bun
- phalethanyway, JS engine is ton of wasted tokens cause of web standards
- bluethe web standards are actually the easiest part because clanker has ref
- phalethgoja is slow, too bad
- bluejit is the hard part, but dog is already getting fast there
- blueit already has 0 recompilations for some warm operations
- phalethok, so that's what is clanker doing
- bluethat doesn't mean a lot right now, but it's only going to get better
- blueand btw remember it's currently only optimised for amd64
- blueunlike v8, which has instructions for many, many platforms. I just need linux servers for now
- phalethis JIT compilation doable with golang?
- blueyes
- bluea friend of mine built wago (wago.sh) which is nearly the fastest wasi runtime, has jit
- bluebeats the v8 wasm runtime
- bluethat's currently the inspiration for dog, wago showed it's possible
- bluewago is top of many benchmarks and 2nd or 3rd (to jsc) in others
- phalethnah, clanker has no chance
- bluewago is 100% clankered
- phalethyeah, but wasm is simple
- blueyes
- blueI'm not saying it's gonna be as easy as wago
- bluebut it is possible
- phalethwhat is this error? flog: binary target is missing
- blueno idea
- phalethtrying to call: flog run --workspace apps/website build
- bluebinary target sounds like esbuild stuff?
- phalethah, so package.json and other things got update in primate repo
- phalethso I need to pull down that
- blueyes
- bluephaleth, you'll notice it's really really fast
- blueit's actually ridiculously fast
- phaleththat @primate/source is some magic
- phalethwell, at least pnpm repos can still use the previous: flog build --workspace apps/website
- blueit's just runtime keys. with dog it's all gonna be standardised into the "source" runtime key
- bluethe idea is, no need to compile TS, ever
- blueit's perfect
- bluebtw this reminds me, once primate 0.43 releases and flog.run can serve binaries, we gotta move rcompat and repopack to flog
- blueget rid of pnpm completely
- phalethyeah, also bun
- blueyes bun is dead anyway. sumner threw out all the team and is now playing with claude alone
- phalethnot sure what you mean by: compile TS
- blueTS -> JS
- phaleththere is still build/server.js right now
- blueyes but that's primate build, don't confuse it
- blueprimate build is about building the primate server with esbuild. it also strips TS but that's not a costly operation
- phalethso tsc is not called on invididual primate packages?
- phaleththe 6 ones that the primate website needs
- blueright now? no. it used to, when we had `flog build` in the containerfile
- phalethhmm
- bluetsc (which is tsgo since version 7) is fast, but still costs a lot of time
- bluethe reason we went down from 44s to 20s are mostly factoring out the TS build time
- blueand a few optimisations in flog
- phalethmagic
- bluewell it's hardly any magic. bun has supported running ts directly for a while. node has had it since v24 I think
- blueit's not really magic anymore
- phalethwell, if rcompat can be built that way then it's legit I guess
- bluebtw phaleth, one of hte reasons I'm building flog, is that node doesn't allow loading TS from node_modules
- phalethah, so that's why
- bluewhich is a very, very backward decision
- blueone of the reasons I'm building dog*, sorry
- bluebun can load TS from node_modules
- bluebut node refuses. it has the capability, it just refuses
- phalethyeah, bun is pushing node around, good
- phalethwell, what a shame for people paying for all those CI costs
- phalethso dog is gonna be the first TS only runtime? JS completely banned?
- phalethI mean it should be exactly that
- phalethcause there are lot of optimizations to be had from the typesystem
- blueidk it needs to ban JS completely
- blueidt*
- bluebut dog is gonna be focussed on avoiding that pesky build step
- blueand also you to publish source-packages to npm
- bluein fact, encourage you to do so
- blueif you publish both src and lib, and point to src with the "source" runtime key, you allow dog to run your packages directly from source
- bluethe problem of newer runtimes, like deno and bun, they always tried to reshape reality around their own egos
- blueI think it's important to play along with npm/node even if I don't like it
- phalethsounds good, but it'll take a lot of time
- bluetime is all we got
- blueof course if we had funding, this would be done yesterday
- dreamrealSo getting streampack set up for another network has been... instructive
- phalethwhat's the tech stack?
- dreamrealthe backend server is postgres+jvm, the front ends are variable: everything's OCI. The main front end on bytecode.news is primate; there's a spring+JS UI at pudl.bytecode.news
- dreamrealthe UIs are "bytecode.news" that use the streampack API, they're not "streampack"
- dreamrealThe idea was to build an ontology on the backend, not using *ontology tools* because nobody really thinks of ontologies very well, and the translation from ontology to usable API isn't worth it for the most part. But the API says "here's what you can do," and the UIs and services make those operations appropriate for their domains.
- dreamrealso there's an ontology, and an IRC service, and... well, there's nevet right there
- dreamrealI had thought of actually doing an ontology, blazeds or rdf, but... again, ontologies
- phalethah, it's that nevet thing that is still deployed on the VPS next to repopack
- dreamrealyeah, I don't know the state of that at all, baby steps!
- phalethontology makes you sound like a doctor
- dreamrealDoes it? To me it makes me sound like someone who works with knowledge graphs, because that's what ontologists do
- phalethheh, ok, I never heard that term
- dreamrealan ontology = a body of knowledge
- dreamrealdesigning one is utterly nontrivial
- phalethI remember nevet deployment with primate as frontend was rather smooth, only one problem with jdbc
- dreamrealnevet's factoids are an actual limited ontology; a factoid has info, urls, seealso, tags, maven coordinates, etc., as a very limited ontology
- dreamrealoh yeah, primate stores the tokens in a db as a limited scope
- dreamrealthe nextjs front end doesn't, and probably should, but I'm trying to sort of drop that one as unmaintained except for security issues: if someone wants to write a GOOD nextjs front end I'll be happy to deploy it but it's not MINE and I don't like that UI
- bluenextjs and good are not typically words that appear together in one sentence
- phalethhmm, I think nextjs or in other words react on backend is wrong, should be all TS at this point in time
- dreamrealyep, I suppose it's doable but not by me and I have no interest in it
- dreamrealI WOULD like to try an HTMX UI, though, it'd be a lot like the pudl implementation
- dreamrealcould probably use a lot of the same server code
- bluedreamreal: https://primate.run/docs/frontend/htmx
- nevetPrimate — HTMX
- dreamrealheh
- dreamrealgood point :D
- dreamrealSee discord, BTW: I'm working on an article about rcompat
- blueprimate is kinda awesome: you could have both marko *and* htmx, in ONE app, in two disjunctive bundles
- bluelooking
- dreamrealIt feels like rcompat mostly needs a good thorough documentation workover
- phalethhtmx tends to go well with any view/template layer, but the framework has to be able to support partial html responses
- phalethbut might as well not use any framework and put all markup in TS
- phalethI mean template literals are a thing, not much support from IDEs, but clanker does not care
- bluedreamreal: you're also welcome to submit patches to rcompat (docs), if you want. otherwise I'll fix those things myself as soon as I can
- phalethnew rcompat favicon is very original
- bluephaleth: primate uses partial html responses on every htmx request, automatically
- phaleththat means dreamreal does not have to pester clanker with TS
- phalethI mean template literals
- blueya
- phalethactually, I gotta check if I pushed the favicon
- phalethrepopack site thinks favicon is binary
- dreamreal0ver.url=https://0ver.org/
- nevetZeroVer: 0-based Versioning — zer0ver
- dreamreal0ver
- dreamreal0ver.url=https://0ver.org/
- dreamrealFactoidUpdatedEvent(selector=0ver)
- nevetok, dreamreal: updated 0ver.
- dreamreal0ver=<reply>"0ver" refers to a versioning scheme that uses a significant version of "0," forever, used by *many* popular projects across many ecosystems.
- dreamrealFactoidUpdatedEvent(selector=0ver)
- nevetok, dreamreal: updated 0ver.
- dreamreal0ver.seealso=semver
- dreamrealFactoidUpdatedEvent(selector=0ver)
- nevetok, dreamreal: updated 0ver.
- dreamrealsemver.url=https://semver.org/
- dreamrealFactoidUpdatedEvent(selector=semver)
- nevetok, dreamreal: updated semver.
- dreamrealsemver=<reply>Semver is "semantic versioning," a version scheme that uses major, minor, and patch version numbers, indicating the severity of change from *prior* numbers.
- dreamrealFactoidUpdatedEvent(selector=semver)
- nevetok, dreamreal: updated semver.
- dreamrealsemver.seealso=0ver
- dreamrealFactoidUpdatedEvent(selector=semver)
- nevetok, dreamreal: updated semver.
- bluedreamreal: https://rcompat.repopack.app got a logo... courtesy of phaleth
- nevetrcompat — JavaScript standard library
- dreamrealI HATE IT! Let me go look at it
- bluehow can you hate it if you didn't look at it >_>
- dreamrealno favicon yet, is it the flowchart-looking thing?
- dreamrealI was being funny
- dreamrealI am hilarious, you know, everyone tells me that after I pay them to say it
- blueyes, no favicon yet, because I was lazy
- dreamrealNo worries, one bit at a time
- blueweird, there is a favicon
- blueit's just not getting loaded
- blueit's not explicitly in the code, btw. it relies on browsers trying for it automatically
- bluelike primate.run does
- bluebut I think the favicon may be botched, will need to ask phaleth
- bluedreamreal: https://rcompat.repopack.app/
- nevetrcompat — JavaScript standard library
- bluefavicon works
- blueI do have some other fixes
- dreamrealwoot
- bluewhat woot
- dreamrealfixes + favicon
- blueya
- bluehttps://bytecode.news/posts/2026/10/emergent-design-outside-the-codebase
- bluethis is an incredible article, but I recommend listening to it rather than reading
- * dreamreal shudders
- dreamrealthe narrator's a goofball and is not good at this
- dreamrealThe author also needs to start putting "hey, share this if you think it's worth sharing" somewhere
- blueoh come on, don't go yt on us
- dreamrealWell, here's the thing: people are not sharing this
- dreamrealthey're leaving it up to me and that's not going to be sufficient to build critical mass, it's just the way it is
- blueI mean, I *get* the sentiment. people don't share unless you ask them to. I might be an exception, but still, the "subscribe, hit the bell icon" thing is what annoys me the most in yt videos
- dreamrealso I can do it all myself OR I can ask people to step up and help
- dreamrealI might ask and then nobody thinks it's worth sharing, that's entirely a possible outcome
- bluewell this is *good* content, and it's essentially for free, I don't see a reason not to share it
- dreamrealbecause sharing is an action and I don't have any calls for action, so people... don't
- blueand btw it's good, as we already established, despite the primary sources often being trrible
- dreamrealso the exposure is mostly limited to MY networks and I don't enjoy networking well
- dreamrealthere's some but not a lot
- bluebtw, you can add bytecode.news here as a feed too, I'd say
- dreamrealand I can't see myself doing the whole "click 'like' and subscribe!' thing
- blueit might not always or often be primate relevant, but it's almost always worth reading
- dreamrealrss feed subscribe https://bytecode.news/
- dreamrealfeed subscribe https://bytecode.news/
- nevetSubscribed to "ByteCode.News"
- dreamrealgrr
- dreamrealthere
- bluenice
- bluefeed list
- nevetjustine.lol - https://justine.lol/rss.xml Next.js Blog - https://nextjs.org/feed.xml Read the Tea Leaves - https://nolanlawson.com/feed/ The JetBrains Blog - https://blog.jetbrains.com/feed/ W3C - Blog - https://www.w3.org/blog/feed Terminal Trove - https://terminaltrove.com/blog.xml Distant Province - https://distantprovince.substack.com/feed That Privacy Guy! Blog - https://www.thatprivacyguy.com/blog/feed.xml James Shore - https://www.jamesshore.com/v2/feed Entropic Thoughts - https://entropicthoughts.com/feed Feed - https://hollycummins.com/rss.xml Eignex - https://eignex.com/feed.xml Nate Meyvis - https://www.natemeyvis.com/feed/ FREEZE64.COM - https://freeze64.com/feed/ purplesyringa's blog - https://purplesyringa.moe/blog/feed.rss Angular Blog - Medium - https://blog.angular.dev/feed Typotheque - https://www.typotheque.com/rss Ziglang.org News - https://ziglang.org/news/index.xml Martin Fowler - https://martinfowler.com/feed.atom bun.com - https://bun.com/rss.xml Svelte blog - https://svelte.dev/blog/rss.xml The Astro Blog - https://astro.build/rss.xml Improbable Research - https://improbable.com/feed/ Diátaxis - https://diataxis.fr/atom.xml Terence Eden’s Blog - https://shkspr.mobi/blog/feed/atom Ember.js Blog - https://blog.emberjs.com/rss.xml Random Notes and Cheat Sheets - https://www.kodewerk.com/feed.xml Deciphering Glyph - https://blog.glyph.im/feeds/all.atom.xml Docker - https://www.docker.com/feed/ Node.js Blog - https://nodejs.org/en/feed/blog.xml Simon Willison's Weblog - https://simonwillison.net/atom/everything/ Chicory Blog - https://chicory.dev/blog/rss.xml tRPC Blog - https://trpc.io/blog/rss.xml Primate Blog - https://primate.run/blog.rss OpenTelemetry - https://opentelemetry.io/index.xml Blog posts | RSS Feed - https://www.cockroachlabs.com/rss.xml Rust Blog - https://blog.rust-lang.org/feed.xml ByteCode.News - https://bytecode.news/feed.xml Nushell - https://www.nushell.sh/atom.xml Vanish is... - https://vanish.is/feed.xml Paged Out! Magazine - https://pagedout.institute/rss.xml JoshLong.com - https://api.joshlong.com/feed.xml Nature Reviews Computing - https://www.nature.com/nrcomput.rss David M. Lloyd - https://word-bits.flurg.com/rss.xml Biome | Blog - https://biomejs.dev/blog/rss.xml Deno - https://deno.com/feed Spring - https://spring.io/blog.atom OpenAPI Initiative - https://www.openapis.org/feed TypeScript - https://devblogs.microsoft.com/typescript/feed/ Enigmastation.com - https://enigmastation.com/feed.xml Open Liberty - https://openliberty.io/feed.xml MDN Blog - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/blog/rss.xml Fernando Borretti - https://borretti.me/feed.xml The Nuxt Blog - https://nuxt.com/blog/rss.xml The Vue Point - https://blog.vuejs.org/feed.rss cekrem.github.io - https://cekrem.github.io/index.xml Vlad Mihalcea - https://vladmihalcea.com/feed/ Piotr's TechBlog - https://piotrminkowski.com/feed/ Apache Fory™ Blog - https://fory.apache.org/blog/rss.xml Vercel News - https://vercel.com/atom Poimandres - https://pmnd.rs/feed.xml Apache NetBeans - https://netbeans.apache.org/blogs/atom React Blog - https://react.dev/feed.xml Christian Rackerseder | Blog - https://www.echooff.dev/rss.xml thoughts from the red planet - http://feeds.feedburner.com/ThoughtsFromTheRedPlanet WebKit - https://webkit.org/feed
- blueah, it's all feeds
- dreamrealgah, that's a horrible command
- bluenot just this channel's
- blueI forgot :/
- dreamrealyeah, I need to fix that
- dreamrealfeed subscribed
- dreamreala whole lot of commands I forgot how to use
- dreamrealfeed
- bluenevet should print help I think
- bluefeed
- dreamrealyeah, the IRC side has a lot of trouble with help because it's so verbose
- dreamrealfeed subscriptions
- nevetbun.com - https://bun.com/rss.xml Node.js Blog - https://nodejs.org/en/feed/blog.xml Primate Blog - https://primate.run/blog.rss ByteCode.News - https://bytecode.news/feed.xml Deno - https://deno.com/feed
- dreamrealthere
- bluenice
- blue"The broad, general, forward-looking interface built for unknown future uses is exactly the speculative abstraction YAGNI forbids"
- bluevery good
- bluewhat's funny about this article dreamreal is that it describes rcompat almost to t
- blue"In both cases the design arrives when something uses it, and not before."
- blueit was always designed around my needs in primate
- dreamrealyes, emergent design isn't new
- blueto a t*
- dreamrealbain's book was mid-2000s and wasn't new THEN
- bluemaybe I should get it
- bluebtw: why don't you do affiliate links?
- blueI think you link to amazon relatively frequently
- blueif I buy the book anyway, I don't see any harm in you getting something out of it. it's a win-win situation, since amazon has enough to spare
- dreamrealI am allergic to such things :/
- dreamrealDon't want to feel like I'm trying to sell people on things, including thinking
- blueyeah I get it
- bluebut at some point it would be nice to have a business model around BCN.. maybe subscriptions
- dreamrealyeah, I know
- dreamrealI just hate the ideas I've had around it
- blueya
- bluehttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50132798
- nevetEmergent Design, Outside the Codebase | Hacker News
- blueeveryone pls upvote
- bluedreamreal: https://repopack.com/project/flog/tasks/74
- bluea way forward for dog/flog
- bluehttps://repopack.com/project/rcompat/tasks/46
- bluesoon coming
- bluedog is screaming along...
- bluecurrently working on a measured array-index speed paw
- bluedreamreal: ^
- bluewe also need `flog test --coverage`