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Thursday, November 5, 2026 (America/New_York)
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- blueWB jreicher.
- jreicherHowdy
- bluejreicher: Kotlin WASM support is coming in Primate 0.45. With a bit of luck, we're gonna get hotreloading baked in as well.
- blueIf this pilot proves successful, I'm gonna target Java WASM for 0.46. I haven't added new backends in a while time
- blueJust to be clear what I mean with hot-reloading. When you change routes in Primate, during development, it rebuilds the running server and then replaces it. So you don't need to restart the server to see any changes you make to routes or backend logic.
- blueWith the wasm boundary, that's a bit more complicated: you need to rebuild .wasm files, too, but ideally only those that are affected. This is supported in Go, Ruby and Python for Primate. The Kotlin backend will likely create one big .wasm file, which might make hotreloading a bit slower at first. I might possibly have to switch to compiling many small files for dev, and one monolith for production.
- blueBut the effects are pretty cool: you edit a .kt file, primate refreshes the browser and you can use the changed backend
- bluedreamreal: I *LOVE* that I can write something like this: "Q: now that repopack is migrated completely to `key`, we can inform flog#225 to take action appropriately, correct?", and clanker GETS it.
- dreamrealyeah, they're getting better about context
- bluedreamreal: also, it REALLY loves saying "failed closed". So much so that I started adopting it when telling it to review stuff, as in, "the state of the task must be left in a conclusive state"
- blueI'm totally misusing the term there, but so does it, and I so don't care
- blue"Whilst you're reviewing: a few things. FINDINGS.md and other results from the GNG study must disappear. Also, the task must stack upon the docs reorg at 356, to be its tip. At its current state, it must fail closed at REVISION."
- bluedreamreal: ^ is this parsable to you as a human?
- dreamrealNot to me without enough context, on first read, no, but i don't think that matters
- bluek, good to know
- bluethe context is: the kotlin task started as a GO-NO-GO study, before transitioning into full impl. And '356' is just another docs reorganisation task that moved around a few docs that the Kotlin task would also be changing, hence the restacking. But clanker GETS it, because context!
- dreamreal*nod*
- nevet[Node.js Blog] Notable V8 changes from Node.js 26 to 27 (Alpha) - https://nodejs.org/en/blog/announcements/notable-v8-changes-from-node-js-26-to-27-alpha
- systemfaultOh, Iterator#zip, what a surprise...
- systemfaultTold Voldemort 3+ years ago that it would be a worthwhile addition...
- bluesystemfault: and did Voldemort listen? of course not
- systemfaultblue: I actually took 2 minutes to check the TC39 proposals to see if he was the one behind it.
- systemfaultOf course not.
- bluethat guy lost it when he started banning people from #js for not being part of his crazy progressive agendas
- blueI remember talking to him in private about `master` vs `main`. He acknowledge the move was stupid, but said "if one black guy feels bad about it, it's good enough for me"
- bluewhat an idiot, by God
- bluegood riddance that I don't have to interact with him any longer
- systemfaultI'm "generally" more against performative progressivism than progressivism itself...
- systemfaultI haven't gone back to his channel since the day he kicked me... from both the node and js channels
- blueyeah, terrible :/
- blueI found it a certain irony that the guy who advocates for keeping backcompat for nearly forever (in his packages, he supports node 0.4!), has no qualms about a git change that broke everyone's flows...
- bluebut of course, blue tribe, no brain, what I can say
- nevet[Node.js Blog] Notable V8 changes from Node.js 26 to 27 (Alpha) - https://nodejs.org/en/blog/announcements/notable-v8-changes-from-node-js-26-to-27-alpha
- bluedreamreal: why did nevet post it again? or did the node people mess up something in their feed?
- dreamrealYeah, it showed up as a new entry somehow
- dreamrealYou would be surprised - or maybe not - at how bad people are at RSS
- dreamreali had to do a whole update to help sanitize feeds that don't do base urls properly, or use *internal urls* - one site has localhost:3000 as the host/port for their PUBLIC FEED
- dreamrealAnd yes, I've tried to tell them
- blueouch
- bluethis is kinda bad though, RSS is a wonderful technologuy
- bluetechnology*
- dreamrealit's a good idea with a set of atrocious specs but eh
- bluedreamreal, clanker is really struggling with me demanidng that kotlin hot reload should be <1s
- blueit's currently apparently at 5-7s. am I asking for too much?
- blueidk it just doesn't appear a very nice experience to wait 5 seconds for your app to reload
- dreamrealDepends on the codebase size, the compiler is not super-fast
- bluewith Go/Python/Ruby it's immediate
- blueI don't know that it should take that long with Kotlin
- blue"It is not WASM initialization alone: standalone initialization measured roughly 7–21 milliseconds. A warmed, unchanged Gradle invocation previously took 1.84 seconds."
- bluehm
- blue1.84 seconds??????????????????????
- bluethis is like, 20 lines of code
- blueit should take 1.84 milliseconds :(
- dreamrealyes. Are you using build.gradle.kts or build.gradle?
- bluebuild.gradle.kts
- * dreamreal is not esp a fan of gradle, but it may be the right solution here
- bluehttps://repopack.com/project/primate/tasks/350
- dreamrealso you're invoking the compiler chain *twice*
- dreamrealonce to verify the build, once to RUN it
- bluedamn
- blue"There’s a real concern, but “compiling twice” is misleading.
- bluebuild.gradle.kts is Kotlin code, so Gradle must compile the build script—but normally caches that compilation. It does not mean every edit compiles your routes twice."
- dreamrealyes, but it has to *check*
- dreamrealit will cache if it can
- blueBefore switching to Groovy or replacing Gradle, #350 should measure:
- blue1. Where that no-op invocation spends its time.
- blue2. Whether Gradle’s configuration cache materially reduces it.
- blue3. Whether development is unnecessarily using expensive production compilation/link settings.
- blueGroovy?????
- * blue is losing it
- dreamrealpatience, young padawan
- dreamrealproblems are things to be solved, not endured
- blueI have no idea out of which butt it pulled that one, but it seems concerning
- dreamrealbe a programmer
- * blue patiences
- dreamrealbuild.gradle = groovy, build.gradle.kts = kotlin
- bluegroovy as in the apache groovy we talked about?
- dreamrealthe groovy and kotlin interfaces are *materially* the same, but kotlin gives you typesafety in your build, etc
- blueoh
- * blue doesn't know a lot, very small
- dreamrealyes, gralde is the PRIMARY place people still write groovy
- bluewhy not use makefiles?
- dreamrealas far as I know, at least
- dreamrealbecause invoking the entire build chain via make is an utter drag
- blueI hear makefiles solve everything, if you only allow yourself to have a psychosis every time you look at them
- dreamrealtheer you go
- dreamrealif you're okay with psychosis, make or cmake or just win
- * blue is def not okay with psychosis
- * blue leaves psychosis to the clankers
- dreamrealI actually use just+[maven|gradle|make] quite a bit myself: just gives me broad profiles for invoking the build tools the way I want
- dreamrealjust I have stuff like `just mr-watch 1117` to watch the gitlab CI/CD run, or `just coverage-view` to run the coverage profile and then open the summary pages, etc
- bluewell, sol 5.6 is busy profiling kotlin wasm builds
- dreamrealmy team has those files (they're in teh repos) but don't use them, so I tend to run circles around them even in basic tasks
- blueI see. just seems cool, I never had need for it though, I think
- dreamrealthey'll reload the gitlab CI/CD pages on their own, and I'm like "... why"
- dreamrealit's a lot like make with better syntax
- dreamrealyou could do everything just does WITH make
- blueI feel like reinventing make isn't a really good pattern, given uh, the aforementioned psychosis angle
- dreamrealwell, okay: but look at how make handles propagation. just isn't trying to BE make, it's trying to be make for the *absurdly* common cases
- dreamrealif you need advanced substitution patterns, etc., make is still better and everyone knows it and expects how it works
- bluemy point is, that this is a broader pattern. scripting languages often feel like a bandaid for building stuff. that's something I liked about zig: you use the language itself to build stuff
- dreamrealsure
- blueI do wish the zig people had thought this through and made zig equally capable of building anything, but they mostly focus on zig/c
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- * blue!~blue@user/blue changed the topic to: https://primate.run | This channel is logged: https://bytecode.news/logs/irc/libera/primate
- blueWASM executable generation/linking 2.31–2.63s
- nevet[Flog releases] Flog 0.1.14 - https://repopack.com/api/v0/projects/flog/releases/products/flog/versions/0.1.14
- nevet[Flog releases] Flog 0.1.13 - https://repopack.com/api/v0/projects/flog/releases/products/flog/versions/0.1.13
- nevet[Flog releases] Flog 0.1.12 - https://repopack.com/api/v0/projects/flog/releases/products/flog/versions/0.1.12
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- bluesystemfault: did gurrr or someone complain about that meme?
- systemfaultThe one on the TS channel? No. I did.
- blueya
- systemfaultI would have said the same has it been a pro-democrat one.
- blueya, I get the point, you're trying to keep it professional
- blueit's a pity our leftist friends don't give us the same courtsey...
- systemfaultI'm fine with political "discussions" TBH as long as people remain civil.
- systemfaultBut I'm not sure about just posting memes
- blueyeah I totally get, this is no criticism
- blueI noticed the schwifty guy kind of got quiet after you don't him you don't think the US are particular great either :P
- blueyou told him*
- blue(which is true, btw)
- bluein other news... I'm 42 today
- bluenot getting any better I fear, the rest :P
- systemfaultOh, happy B day
- bluethank you :)
- systemfaultYeah, I'm now 44... we're getting old
- blueyeah :/ I don't *feel* old, it's a weird thing. In my mind I'm still in my 20s...
- jreicherOld people give being old a bad name
- blueheh
- bluebut my wife got me a lego set of the Space Shuttle
- blueI'll probably spend most of tomorrow assembling it, I'm a sucker for these things
- jreicher12 year old me is really jealous right now. Can I come round to your house?
- bluesure jreicher
- bluesystemfault: import defer * as X is ugly, but it is exciting because it solves the circular dependency problem...
- systemfaultYeah, looks useful
- systemfaultI didn't know it was a proposal until now
- blueme neither...
- bluebut it solves the User imports Post (hasMany) imports User (hasMany - author)
- bluehasOne - author*